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Obama to designate chunk of San Gabriel Mountains a national
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AW
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

SGBob wrote:
Private contractors also usually add a 10 - 15% contingency to estimated project costs, which means that projects that finish "on budget" are actually 10-15% over budget.


Is the WCA a construction firm and not a conservancy...that claims the appropriate knowledge to design and execute forest development?  
Granted, a couple of picnic tables are being thrown up for $500,000, not anything epic.

Must be the WCA board that reflects such an expertise?
1)Hilda Solis, Supervisor, First District
The original takeover proponent politician,
2)Mark Ridley-Thomas, Supervisor, Second District
another politician
3)Don Knabe, Supervisor, Fourth District
politician
4) Michael D. Antonovich, Supervisor, Fifth District
Since I know of this guy, I cant say anything nice....but yeah, politician.
5) Dan Arrighi
Incumbent Temple City City Councilmember, Past Mayor, and Mayor Pro Tem ...ahh, one of those cities that gave away all their land
6) Frank Colonna
politician
7) Roberto Uranga
politician who is also collecting retirement pay from Calpers for another political position.
8 ) Gail Farber
DWP...so you got one credible person with unknown involvement(probably zero). "Non-voting".
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SGBob



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sean wrote:
Without private enterprises building roads, houses, and business operations throughout the mountains, we would still be chafing our hides on multi-day mule rides along old Indian trails, simply to reach the top of the front range. The way we use the wilderness today is a direct result of private development, which has opened up more and more recreational opportunities. Government hoarding of the land only stunts both developmental and recreational advancements within the forest.


We don't have to speculate about what private ownership of the San Gabriels would do. We can look to places that are actually privately owned today, like Vulcan's property at the mouth of Fish Canyon and the decades-long battle over access to the Fish Canyon Falls trail.

I think we have plenty of space that has been green-lighted for development. There's a reason nobody on this board "hikes" the streets of El Monte, and it's because we specifically want to get away from development. I find that the roads in the San Gabriels serve primarily as a means of conveying graffiti vandals and litterbugs further into the forest. I would welcome closing all of them. If you want to go see it, you'll hike it.
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Sean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Permitting Vulcan's operations in Fish Canyon serves a human need far more important than the need for another poison-oak filled canyon mouth in the front range.

Besides, there are much better examples of private development in the Gabes. How about the city of Wrightwood? I love using Wrightwood as a springboard for hiking over the Blue Ridge and beyond.

Also, we have the observatory and towers on Mt. Wilson to thank for keeping the roads open up there.

And do I even need to mention Baldy Village and the ski lift?

There are other, smaller examples, Newcomb's Ranch, Little Santa Anita Canyon, the Tujunga Canyons. Basically, where civilization is allowed, there are more services and recreational opportunities.

You'll always have the deep wilderness to flee too. But many places below 7000 feet or so are perfectly habitable and could be developed for various purposes.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sean wrote:
Permitting Vulcan's operations in Fish Canyon serves a human need far more important than the need for another poison-oak filled canyon mouth in the front range.

Besides, there are much better examples of private development in the Gabes. How about the city of Wrightwood? I love using Wrightwood as a springboard for hiking over the Blue Ridge and beyond.

Also, we have the observatory and towers on Mt. Wilson to thank for keeping the roads open up there.

And do I even need to mention Baldy Village and the ski lift?

There are other, smaller examples, Newcomb's Ranch, Little Santa Anita Canyon, the Tujunga Canyons. Basically, where civilization is allowed, there are more services and recreational opportunities.

You'll always have the deep wilderness to flee too. But many places below 7000 feet or so are perfectly habitable and could be developed for various purposes.


Every place you mention I avoid like the plague, because I pretty much consider them as much.
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Sean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGBob wrote:
Every place you mention I avoid like the plague, because I pretty much consider them as much.


Don't you hike to Hoegee's? And I believe you've mentioned frequenting Monrovia Canyon, whose entrance is lined with houses. Shouldn't such a place be full of the plague as well?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. I think the disagreements here are perhaps more about word choice and terms than about substance.

I tend to agree that if people are more directly and personally engaged with the land and the environment around them, they have more at stake and participate more in the process which can lead to better outcomes in governance and management. Especially when those participating are intimately connected to or familiar with the area.

Whether or not "private development" is the mechanism through which this is achieved is another matter. Most of the positive examples mentioned here started as individual private parcels or enterprises grandfathered in from another era when such things were undertaken on a smaller scale and with a less heavy-handed approach than today. A great number of such sites have been lost. I often wonder what it would be like to travel back in time and visit some of the mountain inns or inhabited canyons back in the day.

I think what most people fear from the term "private development" currently are the "walled city" type developments like La Vina near Millard canyon or various others which may in fact have had the opposite of the desired effect. First the developer then the homeowners association antagonizes the long-standing engaged community and forest users by privatizing and fortifying access points that have been effectively treated as public easements, part of the commons, for decades.

Perhaps I misunderstand some of the language being used here, but I tend to be more suspicious of private interests behaving like "land grabbers." If anything, the forest service/government is tasked with managing all of the competing interests and uses of the land so that we all get to enjoy a bit of it. However, whether they even have the resources to actually get to that part of their mission is not clear. I think their tendency to issue blanket closure orders comes out of desperation, not some malicious or nefarious intent.  Wink
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SGBob



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sean wrote:
SGBob wrote:
Every place you mention I avoid like the plague, because I pretty much consider them as much.


Don't you hike to Hoegee's? And I believe you've mentioned frequenting Monrovia Canyon, whose entrance is lined with houses. Shouldn't such a place be full of the plague as well?


The entrance to Monrovia Canyon is not lined with houses unless you mean the streets you have to drive to get there. I do not consider that a positive addition to the trip. I am trying to get away from those things when I go to the mountains, not find more of them.

Hoegee's Camp is not privately owned or operated, so I'm not sure how that's related to whether opening the San Gabriels to the development that plagues the Los Angeles basin is a good thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

walker wrote:
Most of the positive examples mentioned here started as individual private parcels or enterprises grandfathered in from another era when such things were undertaken on a smaller scale and with a less heavy-handed approach than today. A great number of such sites have been lost. I often wonder what it would be like to travel back in time and visit some of the mountain inns or inhabited canyons back in the day.


The problem is that back when Lowe and Eaton were around, the number of forest visitors could be counted in the thousands. Today it's in the millions. You cannot increase the utilization of the San Gabriels by a thousand-fold under the same practices and expect them to survive as we know them. Anyone who has lived long enough to watch how the market in property works knows that the drive to increase the value of the land drives the tendency to subdivide and develop. I've watched entire valleys covered by a few dozen ranches and farms be buried in suburban development, as if a giant sewer pipe from Los Angeles had opened up and spewed forth graffiti, shopping carts, dirt, and every imaginable form of human filth. Each farm and ranch succumbing to the financial incentive of subdividing and building, and then those owners further subdividing and building. The process continues until it's a cesspool of condominiums and apartments and the only remnants of the natural wonders that were there before are the streets and shopping centers featuring names like "Oaks" and "Sycamore" to reflect that which was destroyed to make way for them.
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Mike P
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGBob wrote:
walker wrote:
Most of the positive examples mentioned here started as individual private parcels or enterprises grandfathered in from another era when such things were undertaken on a smaller scale and with a less heavy-handed approach than today. A great number of such sites have been lost. I often wonder what it would be like to travel back in time and visit some of the mountain inns or inhabited canyons back in the day.


The problem is that back when Lowe and Eaton were around, the number of forest visitors could be counted in the thousands. Today it's in the millions. You cannot increase the utilization of the San Gabriels by a thousand-fold under the same practices and expect them to survive as we know them. Anyone who has lived long enough to watch how the market in property works knows that the drive to increase the value of the land drives the tendency to subdivide and develop. I've watched entire valleys covered by a few dozen ranches and farms be buried in suburban development, as if a giant sewer pipe from Los Angeles had opened up and spewed forth graffiti, shopping carts, dirt, and every imaginable form of human filth. Each farm and ranch succumbing to the financial incentive of subdividing and building, and then those owners further subdividing and building. The process continues until it's a cesspool of condominiums and apartments and the only remnants of the natural wonders that were there before are the streets and shopping centers featuring names like "Oaks" and "Sycamore" to reflect that which was destroyed to make way for them.


Trying to find the "Like" button...
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Sean
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

walker wrote:
I think what most people fear from the term "private development" currently are the "walled city" type developments like La Vina near Millard canyon or various others which may in fact have had the opposite of the desired effect.


Won't happen. Which mountain village is completely walled and gated?

Tourism in the mountains is well-established, and many residents and businesses rely on recreation-based traffic. One of the great benefits of further development will be more amenities for travelers and easier access to remote areas.

New Mountain villages won't look like the city of Vernon or downtown LA--or LA Vina or Bradbury, for that matter. They will look like the villages we already have.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, it's not true that during the Lowe days the forest saw few visitors. The tram alone had about 3 million riders over forty-five years. That's a conservative average of 66k a year, with probably close to 100k during peak years.

And that's just the tram. People were also driving and hiking to other popular destinations.

Sure, there is more traffic now--because of further development both in the cities and mountains.

Also, city-dwellers have not removed every sign of nature. Entire roads are lined with massive oak trees and lawns. People plant gardens, landscape parks, and keep various pets.

Cities reflect the values of its residents. You bring up some negatives, but there are far more positives to focus on.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama sucks my left nut.
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AW
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More 'subcontracting': National Fish & Wildlife Foundation
http://www.nfwf.org/angelesfire/Pages/home.aspx

More forest projects. Good to know this subcontractor is experts on forestry.
Just to busy with their expertise, so they subcontracted these projects....piling up to KJ Peterson Inc.....which is Kathy J Peterson, former ANF spokesperson. Who is associated with the organizations who led the land grab.

Id say the most interesting project is the Williamson Rock area....we'll see! It says 2 years for a decision.

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