I think AW is saying that some protocol was not followed or maybe some bad decisions were made that caused the group to enter a dangerous situation? I'm just guessing since I don't know anything about the technical aspects of canyoneering. But it did sound like Augie's situation was pretty hairy. It sort of reminding me of the two guys on Cathedral Peak who tried to repel quickly to get out of a cold wet storm. They ended up making some crucial technical and judgment errors which eventually led to one of them dying.
So I can kinda understand what he means about the free pass or the critical review. If your buddy came back from an epic, then you'd just want to hear about his adventure and not analyze it. But maybe later you'd want to think about it some more to see what really happened or what else could have been done. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
Yeah, not saying Augie isn't a solid guy. Just trying to figure out what AW is getting at. And even solid people get into hairy situations through no fault of their own.
I often enjoy "epics", and find them to be a great source of learning and enjoyment. Of course it depends on one's definition of what an "epic" is. I'll leave mine to myself.
Yup Tim, protocols not followed. Trouble is no one really agrees on what the protocols are...but OK...
1) starting at 4pm down a creek in a deluge- dont see the merit of this decision. Doesnt have to be the worst case scenario-trying to outhussle a flash flood. Regardless of whether these decisions to descend are just really emotional decisions, higher water creates its own set of obstacles and also amps up the atmosphere. A new person to canyoneering shouldnt be in it. And that IMO should mean no one goes.
2) simulrappel in water - we dont do this. at all. One slip and both sides are done. This sort of brings up the question of how many ropes there were...if I were told that simulraps were in order, I would think the person talking were beginning to lose it...just being honest here. Canyoneering rope is strength rated for one person, the stone knot is meant for another person rigging on the other side, not descending as well.....unfortunately there is a lot of big talk about these types of descents, and then when you say OK, lets do Mildred Falls(about 400ft tall) that way, they say no way! Or someone else is taking the risk.
3) Leadership - everyone working together for fun. The canyoneering equation usually means for every hero, there is a lack of leadership. The protocol is everyone can do the canyon themselves(this has a deeper meaning) or an agreed to plan to cover the lack thereof. This is I trust you with my life kind of stuff. Its different from rock climbing(this is not a hike either!). Despite some egos, no one person can possibly cover all the aspects of canyoneering...but this is anarchy/madness on this tr. This kind of stuff scares the daylights out of me, as this is where epics happen. When this protocol is broken and a mistake is made, look out.
Its too bad that people look to make it personal and assign blame on others, ending in a worthless who is better contest. Sometimes others show their weakness and take it personally whether it was intended or not. Ive made it personal on one occasion(not to anyone who reads this board), but thats neither here nor there. This is an observation of the decisions made on a canyoneering descent, not the person.
Yup Tim, protocols not followed. Trouble is no one really agrees on what the protocols are...but OK...
I REPEAT: it was an amazing adventure that I wouldn’t have missed, both the morning exploration of Vivian Creek below Halfway Camp and upriver all the way to High Creek Camp, and the canyoneering in the afternoon.
I agree with only one thing in AW’s armchair quarterback analysis: the newbie should not have been there. I should have questioned his request to come with us even though I had no role in planning this outing. He actually did great and it was evident he enjoyed the experience. Still, as a cautious outdoors person, this canyon given the wet conditions was too advanced for him (although others in the group disagreed with me).
The other particulars:
We did not start down the canyon in a deluge. Just as we started suiting up, a heavy rain began that lasted for about 20 minutes. We waited until it stopped and the skies seemed to be clearing before we started down. Yes, while waiting for the rain to stop and the time approaching 4 p.m. prospects to me seemed bleak to get down before dark if we had to wait much longer to start down with 8 people. But the rain did stop and two of our party who had been down the canyon a couple of times previously stated that we had plenty of time to get down before dark. I was reassured by this –you have to trust others’ judgment sometimes, particularly those who have done the route before. The canyon’s distance from our starting point to its end was between 1 and 1.5. miles, not lengthy at all compared to other canyons. Plus, the end of the canyon emptied into Mill Creek at a point about a 10 minute walk from the cars.
Despite the 20 minute deluge, I had no concerns about flash flooding given the conditions I observed. Different story had it been raining all day, but this was not the case.
Everyone in the group was adequately skilled for this canyon, with the exception of the newbie. So he got extra attention and especially on the first rappel—the longest—he definitely slowed things down. Still, when the last person came down on this rappel, there was adequate time cushion. But then came the stuck rope. It took an extra half hour to get it down.
Now we did want to move expeditiously because we had four more rappels to go. To gain efficiency, we used the Stone Knot (it isolates two strands of rope) on the shortest rappels. My TR summary said that we used the technique “to get 2 people going down at once.” My language was imprecise. We weren’t going down simultaneously. Rather, while one person was rappelling, the second person was rigging. When the first person was off rappel, the second one started down and a third person would start rigging.
We did have two ropes and the first ones down some of the drops moved ahead to the next drop and anchored the second rope to save time.
As for simul-rapping, the two pair that did it, including myself, had used the technique before and I felt comfortable doing it. It’s like free-soloing 4th class rock in the sense that it’s not for everyone. Individual choice.
On the last drop with a free rappel section, our newbie was lowered rather than have him rappel. Yes, as people came down the last rappel, they were getting very cold and rather than stand around and get colder they headed back for the cars.
After the last man was down the last rappel, the 3 of us still there washed off and bagged the ropes and headed for the cars just as it got dark. When we got to the parking lot, the 5 who had gone in first were still there. We all gathered to make dinner plans. Everyone agreed it had been a great day.
I must point out that I felt I took much greater risks on this day on the exploratory part of the outing. Moving up Vivian Creek, there was a lot of Class 2 scrambling and some bushwhacking, but I also ascended some 4th class sections to avoid the waterfalls and had to proceed gingerly, with the help of adrenaline, to avoid wet and loose rock. The other two who were with me on the exploratory chose not to ascend these sections. Again, individual choice. But I felt fully within my comfort zone.
In short, the day had its share of adrenaline rush and some anxious moments such as the stuck rope. If AW chooses to call this “anarchy/madness” it’s of no moment to me. I tend to like adventure in my outings—ask Taco about our SuperBowl Sunday climb of the Baldy Bowl this year in a raging whiteout. Taco, if we hadn’t had Travis’s GPS loaded with the route down the Ski Hut Trail we couldn’t have seen for sh** to get down off the summit. If we’d stayed up there much longer, we would have all either been giant icicles or been blown off the top by those winds. Now, maybe that was closer to “madness.”
Superbowl SUnday on Baldy was one of the best days I can remember in my life. It was awesome. It was an "epic" in the sense that we got more than we bargained for (I guess), but it was exactly what you go into the mountains for. It was beautiful!
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