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East Fork - San Gabriel River - 7/19/08
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Gusto



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: East Fork - San Gabriel River - 7/19/08  Reply with quote

Posted a trip report over on summitpost about this hike:

http://www.summitpost.org/trip-re...ork-of-the-san-gabriel-river.html

Long Day - ~19miles at 11hours 20minutes (plus 5.5 hours total car shuttle)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a really cool hike!!!!   Just sucks about the car shuttle though .....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads.... but too bad it's never actually going to happen!!!!!!! Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow. I've never been in that area. sounds like a different world. how do you make your pictures bigger?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FIGHT ON wrote:
wow. I've never been in that area. sounds like a different world. how do you make your pictures bigger?


All the pics have to be sized down to under 75kb or something, so making them larger will probably get them pretty pixelated.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the photo of the bear print  Smile Good TR.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top stuff, MC.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool bear prints!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brian90620 wrote:
.....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads....


Yeah, but easier driving access means every jackass drives up and trashes the place or breaks into your car.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

406 wrote:
brian90620 wrote:
.....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads....


Yeah, but easier driving access means every jackass drives up and trashes the place or breaks into your car.


That actually brings up a point I forgot to mention in my trip report.  I was really surprised at just how much trash we encountered during the hike.  Lots of old sleeping bags, vests, pails, water bottles, one shotgun shell, a shoe, just loads of crap.  

This even multiplied once we got back over to the East Fork Trailhead where the entire outhouse had grafity all over it, and trash was scattered about.  It's  crazy how different people view "enjoying" the "wilderness."  

My buddy and I were talking about how much more convenient the car shuttle would have been if the actual highway had been completed up the East Fork, but that obviously would have greatly decreased the "isolation factor."  

Wink

Some parts, or rather nearly all of the northern reaches of the East Fork, felt more like people shouldn't be there at all.  Leave it for the animals.  We should try and do this more often...

Gusto


Last edited by Gusto on Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its as bad as it has ever been since Ive seen it...I think the July 4th holiday was very punishing to the place. We'll see about Labor day, last year was bad, but they had a lot of employees tackling it. Also new was a large number of built dams to build pooling of the water. I think I saw like 5 viewing from just near the trailhead alone.

Also, Cattle Canyon had received a new round of serious trashing/graffiti.

I was just thinking of that from "Monkey canyon" as it being called these times...the east fork doesnt look as bad, only because they cover over graffiti.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/exquisitur/2548524087/
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trash is mostly left by, I believe, gold miners.  The E Fork of the SG river was a hubub of mining activity in the late 1800's, including an entire town, Eldoradoville, near the current site of the E Fork Ranger Station.  

I've seen people working the digs there over the years including elaborate sluice boxes and other sophisticated means, and I think mining has been increasing lately with the price of gold going up and the economy not doing so well.  Unfortunately the mining crowd hasn't been reading the latest LNT publications, and they carry a lot of "heavy crap" type equipment, the cheap stuff that you can get at a Walmart or Big 5.  Cheap and heavy often results in leaving stuff behind when you leave.  

Thank God the upper reaches are as remote as they are, otherwise there'd be even more crap.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:23 pm    Post subject: 30000 people on july 4th weekend Reply with quote

http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_9804427

About 30,000 people flocked into the San Gabriel Canyon over the Independence Day weekend, officials said, trading the hot city streets for the cool waters of the San Gabriel River.
Children splashed in the river along East Fork Road above Azusa on Sunday as their parents cooked food on barbecue grills.

"This is our busiest holiday weekend," said U.S. Forest Service Resource Officer Karen Fortus.

San Gabriel Canyon Road was shut down Friday afternoon, blocking access to the canyon, which had reached its capacity, Fortus said.

On Saturday and Sunday, she said, the canyon was brimming with visitors, but road closures were not necessary.

With temperatures in the San Gabriel Valley climbing into the mid-80s on Saturday and Sunday, and the low 90s on Friday, according to the National Weather Service, most visitors said they were drawn to the forest by the cool waters of the San Gabriel River.

"It just feels so clean," said 26-year-old Liora Zavaleta, who traveled with her family and boyfriend from Los Angeles to spend the day on the riverbank. "It's pretty healing."

Gladys Rubio of Los Angeles camped out in tents Saturday night with her husband, children and other family members.

"The kids have been playing in the water all day," she said.

The smell of carne asada and chicken rose from the family's barbecue grill.

"We do this like once a year," Rubio said.

Over all, Fortus said, the busy weekend went very well, with few incidents reported. California Highway Patrol officials reported they made several DUI arrests in the canyon over the weekend, but responded to no major crashes on the winding mountain roads.

The biggest problem, Fortus said, is the trash visitors leave behind in the forest.

"Oh my gosh, it's terrible," she said of the abandoned junk left on the riverbank.

Volunteers handed out trash bags over the weekend to visitors and asked them to leave their garbage on the road near trash bins.

Many river visitors said they much prefer the shores of the San Gabriel River to the beach.

"(The beach) is hot. The sand's hot. There's too many people," Joey Sermeno of Fullerton said from his folding chair on the riverbank. "It's polluted, too."

Diego Segura of Montebello, who was at the river with friends and family, said he believes the San Gabriel River is a safer place for kids to play than the beach.

"You don't have to worry about the kids getting swallowed up by the ocean," he said
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It baffles me that rivers are so popular and rare in southern California, yet get so trashed and aren't properly protected by the government .  I participated in the Lower Kern clean up this last weekend...photos below show the trash the group I was with picked up along ~8 miles of river.



Crazy.  Second photo was unloaded from the empty rafts shown in the first.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now there is a job for a ranger that I would support. Giving out seriously expensive tickets for littering instead of the adventure pass job.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or how about Community Service -- picking up trash in the area they littered in.  Not that's justice.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hikin_Jim wrote:
Or how about Community Service -- picking up trash in the area they littered in.  Not that's justice.


Yeah. good idea! Do that in addition to the hefty fine! That will make em think twice before they litter again. Pay Rangers extra to go to the hot spots with a video as proof. It would be expensive but the fines would pay for it. and the result would be WAY LESS LITTERING.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had a say, first and foremost I would want the car vandals caught....most frustrating is stuff like..
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/f...reak-alert-near-mount-wilson.html

cant even get out to see the trash without a car being trashed..jeez.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.  It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.

I am a US citizen and I don't like the idea of having to carry around a passport to travel in my own country!  That idea will go nowhere.    
Kit Fox wrote:
It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

I assume that you are claiming that 99% of the damage is done by people who are in the country illegally.  I'd love to see some evidence for that claim!  Or do we just get to make any blanket statements we want as long as we preface them with "it's no secret."
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of our boyscout from troop 185 of Duarte had his Eagle service project about 4 weeks ago at East Fork, that they built and plant 4 signs with the "adventure pass" picture.  There were so overcrowded.  Saw lots of trash and lots of six-packs, and strange people.

Talked to the in-charged Ranger Mike, and he said that the signs that we put up today may not even be there the next day in that area.  Lets not talk about rangers give out citations to literers.  The rangers are overwhelm with what is going on in that area.

On the other hand, nice wild trip report.  I believe that Christopher Brennen rambled through this same trail with his MOUNTAIN BIKE on his back in this story:
http://caltechbook.library.caltech.edu/208/1/mstory/wild.htm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AW wrote:
If I had a say, first and foremost I would want the car vandals caught....most frustrating is stuff like..
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/f...reak-alert-near-mount-wilson.html

cant even get out to see the trash without a car being trashed..jeez.
 Crap!  That really sux. Colby and Eaton Saddle are popular trailheads that I frequent.  I've learned to stay away from anything along the San Gabriel River (E or W Fork), but this is dismaying.

Now if only we could plant some food on this guy and train the Black Bears to come 'round when he does ...    Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.  It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.


Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean?  You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right?  People like board member Friendowl.  Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?

Since you have brought it up, let's look more closely at this.  First, most Hispanics in the LA area are not illegal immigrants at all.  Big surprise, huh?  Something like a third or more of the population of the LA area is Hispanic, mostly gen-u-wine Americans.  And if they are naturalized Americans, guess what?  They probably have passports!  Which is more than 75% of pasty-faced white non-Hispanic Americans can say.

Next, if it is really Hispanics that are causing the problems (and I actually agree with you that it probably is, them and their white trash co-recreationists), why do you think it is happening?  I'll tell you why, it's because they haven't been trained not to.  In most of the third world people toss all their trash on the ground.  You need a big fat middle class before you start worrying about stuff like litter.

Here's a dirty little secret about trash and litter in this country: until about 50 years or so ago, everyone in America, even pasty-faced gen-u-wine white people, used to leave all their trash laying around.  Many parts of the backcountry looked like a landfill.  And why did this change?  Because Americans were trained not to litter during the sixties and seventies.

Just as the children of immigrants are being trained now, as they become assimilated into American culture and values.  Unless, that is, idiot anti-immigrant types succeed in getting them kicked out of schools.

But your passport idea invites some consideration.  That will ensure that the backcountry will above all be reserved for people like me, my French wife and all those Koreans and other naturalized immigrants who almost certainly have passports, and keep the white trash non-passport-bearing riff-raff out!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everyone litters in some way or another..
my fellow mexicans are the majority down by the river
and yes they do leave lots of trash...but most people
do clean up after themselves..even mexicans like a clean river
its just that you add in the little kids who dont know better
and the wind blowing shit all over and then there is a shortage of trash
cans and trash pickup is not very fast so of course things get dirty

at fellows camp in azuza i once witnessed a female [caucasian]
reach into her underwear and pull out a tampon which she then threw in the river...we got into a huge argument and i was aked to leave before the police showed up..her car keys are somewhere up there under all that mess...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonov wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.  It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.


Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean?  You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right?  People like board member Friendowl.  Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?



"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.

I never lumped Friendowl with those that trash the rivers, you did.  I happen to observe most damage being done by one group. On an interesting side note, during the 90s most of the damage and trash I observed in the old Forest service shooting ranges was from caucasions shooters.  

There are dirtbags in all groups.    Where I work, visitors of the immigration detainees often placed their feces covered toilet paper in the trash, rather than flush it in the toilet.  I inquired about the practice, and it is standard procedure in Mexico / South America where the sewer system can't handle the paper. This is proof that some of these immigrants have not been informed of santation procedures used here in America.

Quote:

Since you have brought it up, let's look more closely at this.  First, most Hispanics in the LA area are not illegal immigrants at all.  Big surprise, huh?  Something like a third or more of the population of the LA area is Hispanic, mostly gen-u-wine Americans.  And if they are naturalized Americans, guess what?  They probably have passports!  Which is more than 75% of pasty-faced white non-Hispanic Americans can say.


I've spent 11 years working with immigration detainees, and with the Dept of ICE. Can you prove your assesment that most of what you call hispanics. A fair number in 1996 was two million illegals. I have no doubt the number has quadrupled since that time.  Check out Immigration Counters dot com.

Quote:
Next, if it is really Hispanics that are causing the problems (and I actually agree with you that it probably is, them and their white trash co-recreationists), why do you think it is happening?  I'll tell you why, it's because they haven't been trained not to.  In most of the third world people toss all their trash on the ground.  You need a big fat middle class before you start worrying about stuff like litter.


Bingo!!!!  Remember when Bill Cosby stepped up and told black people to learn how to speak English, and to take care of their kids?  Where are the so-called "hispanic leaders" to speak up and discourage the trashing or rivers, discourage their kids from tagging the rocks (most grafitti I see is from Latin gangs)

The main reason i've observed my favorite area being trashed is lack of enforcement. Too few Rangers, and too far away for Palmdale Sheriff to bother.  This means the area is un-patrolled, and it is a virtual free for all.

Quote:
Here's a dirty little secret about trash and litter in this country: until about 50 years or so ago, everyone in America, even pasty-faced gen-u-wine white people, used to leave all their trash laying around.  Many parts of the backcountry looked like a landfill.  And why did this change?  Because Americans were trained not to litter during the sixties and seventies.


Perhaps we need a Spanish Version of Leave No Trace?

Quote:
Just as the children of immigrants are being trained now, as they become assimilated into American culture and values.  Unless, that is, idiot anti-immigrant types succeed in getting them kicked out of schools.


So if you are against the unfettered flow of illegal immigrants, you are an idiot?  Nice  Rolling Eyes

Quote:
But your passport idea invites some consideration.  That will ensure that the backcountry will above all be reserved for people like me, my French wife and all those Koreans and other naturalized immigrants who almost certainly have passports, and keep the white trash non-passport-bearing riff-raff out!




I would take it a step further and require proof of being a taxpayer, who actually pays for the maintanence and upkeep of said recreational areas.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

friendowl wrote:
everyone litters in some way or another..
my fellow mexicans are the majority down by the river
and yes they do leave lots of trash...but most people
do clean up after themselves..even mexicans like a clean river
its just that you add in the little kids who dont know better
and the wind blowing shit all over and then there is a shortage of trash
cans and trash pickup is not very fast so of course things get dirty

at fellows camp in azuza i once witnessed a female [caucasian]
reach into her underwear and pull out a tampon which she then threw in the river...we got into a huge argument and i was aked to leave before the police showed up..her car keys are somewhere up there under all that mess...


I commend you for confronting the dirtbag lady.  I have noticed trash being bagged up and left under trees, at least they tried to clean-up a bit. i've also noticed the shortage of trash cans.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
simonov wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.  It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.


Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean?  You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right?  People like board member Friendowl.  Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?



"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.


Yeah, speaking of ignorance (and stupidity).

Quote:
His·pan·ic (hĭ-spăn'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

  1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.
  2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.

n.

  1. A Spanish-speaking person.
  2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.


http://www.answers.com/hispanic

Looking forward to the day when we have to take copies of our 1040s everywhere we go in the mountains!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no secret that most of the people who paint graffiti on rocks, throw trash in the rivers, and otherwise screw up our wilderness areas are US citizens who would not be caught by passport checks.

It's no secret that many hardworking US citizens are not taxpayers.  If only taxpayers are to be admitted to the wilderness, my son and a lot of his friends would be excluded.  My son not only packs out what he takes in, he picks up other peoples' trash, does trail building and maintenance, and otherwise contributes in a positive way to the wilderness.

I'd love to see the wilderness kept free of people who trash it.  these are not ways to accomplish that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonov wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
simonov wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.  It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.


Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean?  You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right?  People like board member Friendowl.  Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?



"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.


Yeah, speaking of ignorance (and stupidity).

Quote:
His·pan·ic (hĭ-spăn'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

  1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.
  2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.

n.

  1. A Spanish-speaking person.
  2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.


http://www.answers.com/hispanic


Tell that to a Mexican or a Mexican American, they will disagree greatly with that definition. They prefer to be called Mexicans, and some even accept being called Latinos. I don't have the time or inclination to ask the river trashers what their origin is.

"For some Americans whose heritage lies south of the border, that one word -- "Hispanic" -- carries with it the baggage of centuries of Spanish conquest and cruelty in the Americas."


http://www.mexica-movement.org/

[i]I will not respond to a government created name like Hispanic. To use such a word only perpetuates what many white people believe....That is that all "hispanics" are the same. I am an American first but my roots are Mexican not hispanic. To use the word hispanic as many of my white friends do would imply that someone from Argentina is the same as someone from Puerto Rico and the same as someone from Mexico. The spanish we speak is different as well as food and customs. A patient of mine who is white recently asked if I was hispanic to which I replied, "no, I'm Mexican". I then asked her where her family was from. Using her logic as it applied to me meant she should have answered European. Her answer was much more specific as she said she was Scotch-Irish. My question to her was why she specifically noted her ancestry as coming from two small and very specific areas whereas she is very comfortable with lumping me in a big pile of countries stretching from the Texas border all the way to the tip of South America. Titles of magazines such as yours only helps people as this with their ignorance that we're all the same. As far as that other texas girl from Taft I'm sure she would much rather have been called "that dirty little hispanic".





Quote:
Looking forward to the day when we have to take copies of our 1040s everywhere we go in the mountains!


Enjoy the diapers and grafitti because it will get worse before it gets any better.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK wrote:
It's no secret that most of the people who paint graffiti on rocks, throw trash in the rivers, and otherwise screw up our wilderness areas are US citizens who would not be caught by passport checks.

It's no secret that many hardworking US citizens are not taxpayers.  If only taxpayers are to be admitted to the wilderness, my son and a lot of his friends would be excluded.  My son not only packs out what he takes in, he picks up other peoples' trash, does trail building and maintenance, and otherwise contributes in a positive way to the wilderness.

I'd love to see the wilderness kept free of people who trash it.  these are not ways to accomplish that.


Then come up with a better way to fund stepped up patrols and law enforcement in recreational areas.  Blaming Bush for a small Forest Service Budget won't help.

How many of you guys take the time to photograph the offenders illegally parking, using barbeques in "no fire zones," or trashing an otherwise pristine area?  


Perhaps entrance to recreation areas could be denied until a test has been taken with a passing grade? Knowledge of Forest Services rules, State and Federal laws, understanding the principles of LNT would be required to gain entrance.

I'm sure this will weed out those who can't read.

I've yet to see the Forest Service ever post signs in Spanish telling people not to defecate /urinate in the riverbed, and not to leave trash lying around.  

If they posted signs like that, the militant liberals would cry racism.  Doing nothing wont fix the problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
Perhaps we need a Spanish Version of Leave No Trace?


http://lnt.org/programs/en_espanol.php
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HikeUp wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
Perhaps we need a Spanish Version of Leave No Trace?


http://lnt.org/programs/en_espanol.php


Nice to know that.

I have no way of knowing how many of the group doing most of the trashing, are "internet savvy.'  I suspect many don't even own a computer, but that is pure speculation on my part.  I've never seen any Leave No Trace brochures in Spanish.  I suppose I could spend a portion of my day off handing out Spanish LNT flyers.  I doubt it would help much, but it would be a start.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
Then come up with a better way to fund stepped up patrols and law enforcement in recreational areas.  Blaming Bush for a small Forest Service Budget won't help.

I have not seen anyone here blame Bush.  But you are pulling a bait and switch.  You want to require passports to get into the woods.  Then you want to allow only taxpayers into the woods.  You have provided no insight into how you would fund those two expensive mandates.    
Kit Fox wrote:
How many of you guys take the time to photograph the offenders illegally parking, using barbeques in "no fire zones," or trashing an otherwise pristine area?

I'll certainly do it if I see it.  I suspect that a lot of people on this board would do the same.    
Kit Fox wrote:
Perhaps entrance to recreation areas could be denied until a test has been taken with a passing grade? Knowledge of Forest Services rules, State and Federal laws, understanding the principles of LNT would be required to gain entrance.

I'm sure this will weed out those who can't read.

I'd rather see that requirement than to admit only taxpayers.
Kit Fox wrote:
I've yet to see the Forest Service ever post signs in Spanish telling people not to defecate /urinate in the riverbed, and not to leave trash lying around.  

If they posted signs like that, the militant liberals would cry racism.  Doing nothing wont fix the problem.

Wrong.  Militant conservatives (e.g., the Minutemen) would accuse the Forest Service of being run by liberals because they don't practice English Only.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If they posted signs like that, the militant liberals would cry racism.


Quote:
Militant conservatives (e.g., the Minutemen) would accuse the Forest Service of being run by liberals because they don't practice English Only.


It's no secret...both statements are true.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK wrote:

I have not seen anyone here blame Bush.  But you are pulling a bait and switch.  You want to require passports to get into the woods.  Then you want to allow only taxpayers into the woods.  You have provided no insight into how you would fund those two expensive mandates.  


Those that don't pay federal income taxes would be required to pay a higher fee to recreate.  This happens in America every hunting season. Non-resident (out of state) hunters are required to pay three to four times higher tag fees in order to hunt in other states.

In the last thread (about getting rid of the adventure pass) the Iraq war was used as an excuse for lack of Forest Service funds.

What I want in my "utopia" is a valid method to weed out dirtbags who trash public lands.
Providing a valid form of identification before entrance(drivers license, a legally stamped passport, or a valid green card, is a start at weeding out dirtbags. Heck i'd even go for background checks to get a valid recreation permit. This would definately weed out many gang bangers, probation/ parole violators and illegals aliens that like to trash the outdoors. As an added bonus the trailhead vehicle burglaries would be reduced significantly if background checks were employed.

Note I never said all the group who trash the outdoors are illegal.


Kit Fox wrote:
I've yet to see the Forest Service ever post signs in Spanish telling people not to defecate /urinate in the riverbed, and not to leave trash lying around.  

If they posted signs like that, the militant liberals would cry racism.  Doing nothing wont fix the problem.
Quote:

Wrong.  Militant conservatives (e.g., the Minutemen) would accuse the Forest Service of being run by liberals because they don't practice English Only.


Labeling a Minuteman as militant conservatives is complete BullS$%^. Americans who protest the unchecked, out of control flow of criminal aliens (who destroy our economy, reduce wages, and increase crime) are patriots, not xenophobics, or "militant conservatives.  If you want to see what illegals are really up to visitOutraged Patriots. I'm a 100% supporter of legal immigration. Their are educated people from all over the world that are still waiting to come here legally. Why is it that a doctor from Ireland, or a carpenter from the Philippines can't come to the U.S., but an illegal from Honduras can illegally cross the border, have a baby, then collect welfare through their child?

Like I mentioned before, 11 years of dealing with illegals in a jail setting gives you a perspective that most of you will never know.  They  aren't all a bunch of hard working folks trying to feed their families.  They are drug dealers, rapist, child molesters, murderers.

 As a Reagan Conservative, I would say the English only signs in the forest  are complete failure.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Kit Fox"]
AlanK wrote:
Labeling a Minuteman as militant conservatives is complete BullS$%^.

It is no secret that 100% of Minutemen characterize themselves as "conservatives."  

It is no secret that a person who patrols the border meets the definition of militant ("very active or aggressive in the support of a cause").  

Ergo, Minutemen are militant conservatives.  

I did not say they were good or bad, I just used a perfectly accurate characterization.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel compelled to say something along the lines of "Keep it civil".

That said, I don't see anything being un-civil, and I kinda don't give a crap if anyone's feelings are hurt. Cool

The only side of this argument I have to add to is that folks MUST differentiate between immigration, and ILLEGAL immigration. I see the news putting a "spin" on shit, saying that someone I know who is anti-ILLEGAL immigration, is "anti-immigration", which I take to mean "nobody-else-can-come-here-ever".

Carrion.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no reason for things to get un-civil here.  I certainly agree that there is a big difference between legal immigrants and illegal ones.  I also understand why people who take a stand against illegal immigration get angry when they are accused of being anti-immigrant.  While I am not a fan of a couple of ideas suggested by Kit Fox, he is probably a decent guy who would be fun to hike with.  And I certainly applaud him if he is combating drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, and murderers (independent of their immigration status).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Key word being recreate. If you target an area as being recreation, it wont be pristine(promise). Forest service designed it as recreation, how can we be surprised if any area cant withstand 30000 people. Course less visitors equals less dinero.

I dont really visit the San Gabriels to recreate, which by definition implies impact. I go to hike, get in, get out, I rarely take it easy at a pool or somewhere else for a few hours. Even in a group, my purpose is not to turn my favorite pool into my own backyad BBQ area. I could easily see how it is a recreation place, but it would lose some of its good qualities.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK wrote:
I see no reason for things to get un-civil here.


Yup, just being a moderatorartionator. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TacoDelRio wrote:
AlanK wrote:
I see no reason for things to get un-civil here.


Yup, just being a moderatorartionator. Cool

Which is why you're paid the big bucks!  Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK wrote:
It is no secret that a person who patrols the border meets the definition of militant ("very active or aggressive in the support of a cause").  

Ergo, Minutemen are militant conservatives.  

I did not say they were good or bad, I just used a perfectly accurate characterization.


Calling someone a militant clearly elicits a negative connotation. I'm very active and aggressive in my hiking but you wouldn't call me a "militant hiker" LOL...then again I do carry those mortar rounds. Twisted Evil

To most people, "militant" means engaging in aggressive physical or verbal combat for a cause. It usually involves violence, i.e. militant extremists, etc. I don't think the Minutemen are doing this, are they? I thought I read that even Arnold praised them.

I'm an immigrant myself, but went through the due process to get here legally. I find it extremely unfair that other people can bypass this due process, come here illegally and to some people here in the States that's just fine and dandy. Like in San Francisco, they have an illegal alien sanctuary policy. Nuts I tell you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kit Fox wrote:
Tell that to a Mexican or a Mexican American, they will disagree greatly with that definition. They prefer to be called Mexicans, and some even accept being called Latinos.


You seem like an unlikely spokesman for Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, but perhaps you are a man of many hidden talents.

Me, I'm just a guy sitting here in the barrio, making shotgun stocks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
AlanK wrote:
It is no secret that a person who patrols the border meets the definition of militant ("very active or aggressive in the support of a cause").  

Ergo, Minutemen are militant conservatives.  

I did not say they were good or bad, I just used a perfectly accurate characterization.


Calling someone a militant clearly elicits a negative connotation. I'm very active and aggressive in my hiking but you wouldn't call me a "militant hiker" LOL...then again I do carry those mortar rounds. Twisted Evil

To most people, "militant" means engaging in aggressive physical or verbal combat for a cause. It usually involves violence, i.e. militant extremists, etc. I don't think the Minutemen are doing this, are they? I thought I read that even Arnold praised them.

I'm an immigrant myself, but went through the due process to get here legally. I find it extremely unfair that other people can bypass this due process, come here illegally and to some people here in the States that's just fine and dandy. Like in San Francisco, they have an illegal alien sanctuary policy. Nuts I tell you.


A San Francisco woman whose husband and two sons were gunned down last month — allegedly by an illegal immigrant who remained in the city despite previous crimes — is demanding the city do something about its sanctuary law.

Danielle Bologna was widowed on June 22 when Edwin Ramos, 21, an illegal immigrant from El Salvador, allegedly gunned down her husband, Anthony, and two sons, Matthew and Michael, in a road rage incident when her family was returning from a picnic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TacoDelRio wrote:

That said, I don't see anything being un-civil, and I kinda don't give a crap if anyone's feelings are hurt.


You're my favoritest moderator ever!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Calling someone a militant clearly elicits a negative connotation.

Actually, my friend Kit Fox introduced "militant" into the conversation in reference to liberals, or at least some liberals.   Smile

The word "militant" was not important to my argument.  I was merely reacting to its earlier use.  My point was that many conservative people, including many who take a strong stand on immigration issues, want "English Only" as a national policy.  Presumably, they would apply this to Forest Service signs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonov wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote:

That said, I don't see anything being un-civil, and I kinda don't give a crap if anyone's feelings are hurt.


You're my favoritest moderator ever!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonov wrote:
Kit Fox wrote:
Tell that to a Mexican or a Mexican American, they will disagree greatly with that definition. They prefer to be called Mexicans, and some even accept being called Latinos.


You seem like an unlikely spokesman for Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, but perhaps you are a man of many hidden talents.

Me, I'm just a guy sitting here in the barrio, making shotgun stocks.


I have personally worked with well over 100 Americans of Mexican or Central American origins. Only a few of my friends refer to themselves as hispanics. Most refer to themselves as Mexican-American, Latino, Central American, or even American of Honduras origin.  Nearly all of them have described the stigma of any relation to Spain.

I work with two Nigerian Americans who laugh at American Blacks who refere themselves as African-American.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK wrote:
Tim wrote:
Calling someone a militant clearly elicits a negative connotation.

Actually, my friend Kit Fox introduced "militant" into the conversation in reference to liberals, or at least some liberals.   Smile

The word "militant" was not important to my argument.  I was merely reacting to its earlier use.  My point was that many conservative people, including many who take a strong stand on immigration issues, want "English Only" as a national policy.  Presumably, they would apply this to Forest Service signs.





I'd go for English as the official language. I still can't figure out why the DMV gives driving tests in foreign languages. If these people need to take a test in a foreign language, how the heck are the supposed to read road signs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it means anything, I've had a lot of jobs, with a handful of folks who told me they were illegal immigrants. I'm anti-illegal immigration (who isn't?), dunno how I feel about that to this day.

I wish I knew how to split this topic. I have no problem with this being discussed on our site here, I'd just prefer to move it to Off-Topic... dunno if one could "split" this topic, per-se, or whatnot. If Gusto has no problems with his thread going in this direction, neither do I.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a great idea.
You remember those cameras that HikeUp took a picture of on some peak near Strawberry Peak? I like setting up cameras like that far enough away from and aimed at the main problem areas out of normal view. Like a surveillance system with enough cameras to make sure you film the people, car license plates etc. When the victims come back to their car and find it looted they call the police and the cameras are reviewed. The film would be on like a 48 hour loop never ending. Solar powered. Could be looked at from the police dept.
And if you think you are gonna go up there and mess with it you will be filmed by another system of cameras that are aimed on that camera which is activated by a motion detector system. There is a way.
That would also go for the areas that are trashed and spray painted.
The bottom line for me is that I believe that you do what ever it takes to get rid of the problem and make the offenders pay for it. Word will get around and eventually it will stop.
The camera won't care what race the offender is!
Even if it's "FIGHT ON THE ALIEN FROM THE MOON!"


Last edited by FIGHT ON on Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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