So, are the alcohol stoves actually worthwhile? I've heard that they're relatively low heat and take a lot longer to cook with. I've also heard they can be a little "cranky" (difficult to get to work well) and that wind really plays hob with them. They sound like they might be a good stove to carry as a "just in case" on a day hike, but do you actually use them when you plan to be out overnight?
Hi Jim, nice meeting you up in John's Meadow. Was yours the party camped by the road to the Forsee Creek trailhead as we drove out on Sunday morning?
My hiking partner the weekend before last is into ultralight backpacking and has a homemade cat food tin alcohol stove. He uses it with a (store-bought) two-piece apparatus: a metal conical windbreak that stores flat and a large cup that nests in the top of the windbreak. He puts the windbreak over the stove and nests the cup (like a small pan) on top of the windbreak, and in a very short time he has boiling water! I was really surprised how fast it worked. So, yes, you can really cook with alcohol.
Quote:
Regarding "proprietary" design cartridges: Yeah, I hear you. Dad had a really nice, lightweight propane stove. The company (Williams? I forget the name) went out of business. He bought as many cartridges as he could find and even got some good deals, but inevitably the cartridges ran out, and the stove was useless.
As I mentioned at the top of the thread, I have a couple of excellent Hank Roberts stoves and four obsolete cartridges for them. The stoves can, however, be retrofitted to use more modern cartridges. In fact, the retrofit design is an improvement on the original as the cartridge is remote from the stove, so you can safely use a windscreen with it.
I'm just not sure when I'll be able to get the parts together to do the retrofit. _________________ I'm aware that, for many people, a map holds neither meaning nor mystery. I can only hope, compassionately, that the rest of their existence isn't equally poverty-stricken.
- Colin Fletcher
Have you taken your cartridge stove out in serious winter conditions?
15F at 9,000+ feet. No problems for Snowpeak GigaPower or Jetboil.
It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
Hikin_Jim wrote:
Admittedly, that's a relatively short period of the year, but it's nice to have the white gas stoves then.
It's also nice not to have to shake-n-clean, prime or risk blowing yourself and your mates up at lower altitudes.
LoLz bertfivesix.
Hikin_Jim wrote:
I definitely prefer the white gas stoves for melting snow.
I prefer a big pot to melt snow in.
BTW, I do like my ETA Power stove very much for that purpose. I don't think another stove boils 2.1 Liters of snow faster.
Pretty good too for blueberry pancakes or chicken parmigiano (not the rehydrated type either).
Thing is, EtaPower is best used as a shared stove to save weight and space while cooking for multiple persons.
It's almost too big for me alone.
Hikin_Jim wrote:
Otherwise the cartidge stoves pretty much work fine, and they are a lot more convenient -- no refilling, no pumping, no priming -- and pretty small and light.
Bingo.
Isobutane cylinders also last a very long time.
Given the application, white gas and cylinder stoves have their optimal uses at altitude and for simplicity, respectively.
Key thing is nothing in SoCal is higher than Angels 11.5 Not much difference running out of fuel regardless if cartridges, white gas, alcohol or fuel sticks.
15F at 9,000+ feet. No problems for Snowpeak GigaPower or Jetboil.
15F isn't too bad -- propane is supposed to be good down to about 0F. It's below 0F that you'd really get into trouble. However, that's at sea level. Add in the altitude effects and you're pushing the safety margin a bit at 15F at 9,000+ feet. I personally feel a little safer with a liquid fuel; it gives me a little bit more of a safety margin. You can however do tricks like sticking the canister inside your coat and things like that to warm it so that it'll give off more gas.
Detail stuff if you like that sort of thing:
OK, so I'm not the physicist here (Alan chime in), but the deal with cold and altitude and canisters is vapor pressure. Cold lowers the vapor pressure as the fuel (butane, isobutane, or propane) approaches its liquification point. Altitude also lowers the vapor pressure. As the vapor pressure falls, less gas is available from the canister. It starts taking longer and longer to cook. The piezo electric ignitor may also start to have trouble.
From what I've read, with an isobutane-propane mix (as in JetPower), if the temperature is above the liquification point of propane but below the liquification point of isobutane, you can burn off all the propane but still have left a lot of (now useless) isobutane. You can hear the fuel in the canister but you can't get anything to burn. I've read that isobutane needs to be kept above 25F, butane 32F, and propane 0F. I assume that's all at sea level.
He219 wrote:
It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
Ya got that right. Some people use a lighter to prime the stove which is supposed to be a bit less flare up prone. I'll have to try that some time. Still, any stove in any tent is a dicey proposition at best. Makes me really uneasy.
He219 wrote:
BTW, I do like my ETA Power stove very much for that purpose. I don't think another stove boils 2.1 Liters of snow faster.
Pretty good too for blueberry pancakes or chicken parmigiano (not the rehydrated type either).
Thing is, EtaPower is best used as a shared stove to save weight and space while cooking for multiple persons.
It's almost too big for me alone.
Wow. That's pretty cool. Am I reading the REI site correctly? It'll burn canister or liquid fuel, and not just white gas; it's multi-fuel. The best of all worlds in one stove. Nice efficiency rating too, 10.78 liters boiled per 100g fuel (a Whisperlite boils 7.3 liters per 100g fuel by comparison). It is a tad heavy at 2 lbs. Maybe worth it if going into extreme conditions. Looks like it'd be really bomb-proof in wind.
He219 wrote:
That's when you cook the old fashioned way.
Nah. Really old fashioned is when you wait for lightning stikes to light your fire. Pardon me, I'd better get back to mastodon hunting ... _________________ Hiking? Aw, gee, do I have to?
Hi Jim, nice meeting you up in John's Meadow. Was yours the party camped by the road to the Forsee Creek trailhead as we drove out on Sunday morning?
Good to meet you too. Actually, this was a pretty wimpy trip. We were staying in one of the "organizational camps" in Barton Flats (read: "indoors"). Haven't done an outdoor overnighter for a while and am itching to do so. I did come up half day the day before the "official" camp started and hiked the Momyer mini loop, which was fun. I was envious of you guys since I just turned around at the meadow and went home. Still, any hiking is better than no hiking. Can't always overnight.
simonov wrote:
My hiking partner the weekend before last is into ultralight backpacking and has a homemade cat food tin alcohol stove. He uses it with a (store-bought) two-piece apparatus: a metal conical windbreak that stores flat and a large cup that nests in the top of the windbreak. He puts the windbreak over the stove and nests the cup (like a small pan) on top of the windbreak, and in a very short time he has boiling water! I was really surprised how fast it worked. So, yes, you can really cook with alcohol.
I'll have to see one for myself one time. I'd be concerned that it'd be precarious and that I'd knock the whole thing over or that it'd be useless in the wind. Still, it's good to know that someone's been using one successfully and that it works well. I had visions of ultra long cook times that only and ultra-lighter would put up with.
simonov wrote:
Quote:
Regarding "proprietary" design cartridges: Yeah, I hear you. Dad had a really nice, lightweight propane stove. The company (Williams? I forget the name) went out of business. He bought as many cartridges as he could find and even got some good deals, but inevitably the cartridges ran out, and the stove was useless.
As I mentioned at the top of the thread, I have a couple of excellent Hank Roberts stoves and four obsolete cartridges for them. The stoves can, however, be retrofitted to use more modern cartridges. In fact, the retrofit design is an improvement on the original as the cartridge is remote from the stove, so you can safely use a windscreen with it.
I'm just not sure when I'll be able to get the parts together to do the retrofit.
Very cool. I guess maybe I should have kept that old stove of my dad's. I do have my uncles ancient Primus white gas stove from the 70's (60's?). Maybe I should try to get that thing going. We should have an "old school" day sometime where people can showcase all their "ancient" gear. lol _________________ Hiking? Aw, gee, do I have to?
It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
I find that's when stoves do their best. Below zero, raging blizzard, melting snow AND warming up the shelter...I'm loving it in the right kind of makeshift shelter (I'm an igloo fanatic) Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake. We had built two igloos, one lower down and then a second one farther up. We skied out in a storm and came upon a droopy snow covered Marmot Gortex tent that I had read about next to our lower igloo. I skied up and asked if someone was inside…no reply. We were going to have lunch in the igloo and found the two tent people had moved into it! We had a good time taking with them about the building procedures. I stopped bringing tents with me years ago. Before one thinks about doing so you definitely need experience building them first. Cooking in a snow storm in a bivvy sack... _________________ Avatar is no longer available
So, just how many of those little alcohol stoves do you have? Do you give them out as a "consolation prize" (sorry you didn't make it on your hike) to people you pick up on SAR missions?
Igloos, hunh? Have you got that "down to a science?" I went through the Sierra Club's WTC course recently. We tried to build a 3, maybe 4, person sized igloo, but it took us a long time, 3 hours+. It seems like it would be impractical for a weekend trip; you'd spend a great percentage of your time just building the shelter. Plus the snow has to be plentiful and of the right kind. I'd be a little hesitant to depend on one since one never knows about snow conditions around here. _________________ Hiking? Aw, gee, do I have to?
Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake.
Dry Lake it was, last December 9th.
Happy Birthday Rick; Cheers!
Question on the snowstorm topic - does an igloo vent exhaust gas at the peak? What about cooking from the vestibule of a tent in a storm, that's what I did. Just enough to vent outside. The idea of carbon-monoxide poisining sucks, but is there a way to use the stove as a heater for the tent, short of carrying up a smokestack?
Igloos, hunh? Have you got that "down to a science?" I went through the Sierra Club's WTC course recently. We tried to build a 3, maybe 4, person sized igloo, but it took us a long time, 3 hours+. It seems like it would be impractical for a weekend trip; you'd spend a great percentage of your time just building the shelter. Plus the snow has to be plentiful and of the right kind. I'd be a little hesitant to depend on one since one never knows about snow conditions around here.
There are a couple of very informative threads on igloos at SummitPost.
Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight. But since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year.
It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them. _________________ I'm aware that, for many people, a map holds neither meaning nor mystery. I can only hope, compassionately, that the rest of their existence isn't equally poverty-stricken.
- Colin Fletcher
There are a couple of very informative threads on igloos at SummitPost.
Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight. But since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year.
It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
Interesting. A lot of the guys on Summitpost are in Colorado or other colder climes. I wonder if a seasonal Igloo would work here. We get those darned hot days even in the dead of winter. If it could be made to work, that would be very cool. Maybe proper siting? Maybe in a really shady, protected area? _________________ Hiking? Aw, gee, do I have to?
At any given time I have maybe 10-20. Good idea for consolation prizes I usually try to have one or two in my pack (the second one being to give to whoever thinks they are amazing when they see one). I occasionally experiment when making them by changing the number of jets or volume of fuel held or…In short, I think they are remarkable for what they are.
Must be something about tents and snow at Dry Lake I would be really wary of using stoves with tents. I've seen when accidents happen and CO really bonds tightly with your blood cells. Even if you don't kill yourself you could be decreasing your oxygen uptake as a result. I suppose with the vestible wide open and lots of wind to the point your tent is being "aired out" might lessen that. Since a rain fly is waterproof and Gortex fabrics not that breathable, I would not do it...this is why for bad conditions, I always carry some/all food that's edible without cooking.
Using a stove to warm a tent? I suppose you could heat a lot of water OUTSIDE and then bring it inside to warm a small tent (very inefficient) but I would never bring a stove inside a tent to use. I have toyed with the idea of making a tent with a clear vinyl wall on one side (what a view outside) and black nylon for the rest. Face the vinyl wall south and let the sunlight in to warm the ground, bag, pad, air, and you and maybe even melt snow. For those that need the workout and want to carry extra weight, bring a small 400 watt AirX wind turbine and an electric heating element.
With regard to igloos (snow shelters being a topic all unto themselves) I ended with
Quote:
Before one thinks about doing so you definitely need experience building them first
Some people have better luck with snow caves, some with trenches, the variety is great but done right, they are all quiet, warm, storm proof and easily stuffed and carried in your pack. Under perfect snow conditions, by myself, I can make a two-person (I'm 6'2") igloo in 45 minutes if I'm pressed for time. Extra people can either make it easier or harder but not much quicker (lots of talking, snow ball fights, etc).
I have made them with just 3 or 4 inches of snow on the ground. This takes lots of time and the resulting design does not make the warmest igloo. I usually don't like going out when there is just a few inches of snow on the ground (makes for difficult footing on anything except a smooth trail). I took a group of people up to the last remaining snow patch we could find one year and we built one (outside temps were in the low 80s) but it was hard to believe that an igloo could be "warm" in those conditions. When completed, I said there was no way I would build or sleep in an igloo under those conditions, much better to sleep under the stars.
We once had two stoves and a candle going in an igloo with no measurable effects. Snow is very porous and sometimes it gets so hot in them (94 degrees near the top in one with four of us in inside) that you poke holes in them to allow excess heat out. I usually don't get much of a problem with drips the first night as the snow acts like a sponge but as the nights go by, that soaked in water freezes and begins making an icy glazing inside that can cause drips and possible cause CO build up. Very easy to poke holes for ventilation and then patch them when you turn in. I remember that in the warm 94 one we awoke to 5" icicles hanging down above us
The only two times I was not able to complete an igloo (I've built over a hundred) was when the "snow" was made of several thin layers of ice from several storms of little snow with melt /freeze cycles between and another occasion when I left very early in the morning and after the walls were two feet high, I laid out my pad and sleeping bag to take a "nap" and woke up looking at stars instead of snow . Those make nice wind breaks (I'm sure you've seen pictures of those with tents pitched inside) but do little to insulate and if a lot of snow fall in a storm you spend a lot of time shoveling where as a completed igloo would be stronger and insulate better with the additional snow covering. You can sit on top of an igloo after use, name me one (backpackable) tent strong enough to do that.
The most I ever built on a single trip 4.5 on Denali. I carried my 10/11 pound VE-24 tent a few times solo and it was very spacious but I definitely knew I was carrying it with every step. My solution was to carry a snow saw and bivvy sack instead (and I can fit that in a pack side pocket or fanny pack) Interestingly enough, most igloos I've built have been for single night usage, usually Saturday nites.
Simonov said
Quote:
Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight.
As stated above, I disagree and with all the talk about fitness and killer day hikes it seems strange to not want to spend some time for a killer shelter unless one is too tapped out when they reach camp...maybe from carrying that heavy tent? I We've always had more fun building them than putting up a tent.
And as Simonov also said
Quote:
But since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year. It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
We've built lots here in SoCal and have sometimes continued to use the same one. The longest was one we built in the depression located on top of Baldy Bowl in November and last used it in April a few years back. The Forest Service has a concern about them (building shelters in the National Forest and safety should someone fall in or it collapse on them). I have suggested building some in certain locations for SAR use but I'm alone on this idea Posting them on the net has another down side: with others using them in storms, some people think about doing their "business" inside and then leaving the igloo, shall we say, no longer habitable:x
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Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake. We had built two igloos, one lower down and then a second one farther up. We skied out in a storm and came upon a droopy snow covered Marmot Gortex tent that I had read about next to our lower igloo. I skied up and asked if someone was inside…no reply. We were going to have lunch in the igloo and found the two tent people had moved into it! We had a good time taking with them about the building procedures. 
Posting them on the net has another down side: with others using them in storms, some people think about doing their "business" inside and then leaving the igloo, shall we say, no longer habitable:x