otherwise use your noggin, do some fingerwork and call someone instead of whining.
I agree things can often be ambiguous with the USFS, and the people within the agency suck at communicating sometimes, but in their defense, things like this are not as simple as closing a ride at Disneyland.
i'm sorry but that is utter bullshit.
1) 7 times out of 10, I call them about something and they screw up. they respond with a FALSE statement. in these situations they are either lying, think they know but they don't, or know they don't know but pretend they do
2) 2 times out of 10 they actually say "i don't know"
3) 1 time out of 10 they actually are right (i.e. I called Mt Baldy visitor center and they confirmed Baldy Ski Lift was open but couldn't hike there)
so, no, "fingerwork" is practically useless. it's a damn shame too.
things like this are not as simple as closing a ride at Disneyland
i don't think anyone is knocking them for taking time to decide what the closed boundaries should be. once they make a decision, however, they are simply not clear. not straightforward.
Visualization of a closed area is important. They have just about the crappiest map resolution I've seen uploaded for people to view what is "closed". Give me a break. Upload a goddamn better resolution map. It's not that hard. Hell Elwood did a better job in his spare time. What a fucking joke. _________________ http://socalhikes.com/
I agree about the piss-poor map, and the lame effort sometimes put forth on alot of things the USFS does. Like the pathetic thing called a website and information exhanging. It could (and should!) be so much better.
I also agree that your average person that answers the phone at some USFS offices is often clueless. However, that's why I gave some specific names of people that usually know what's going on, and actually get out there and do some of the same things many of us here love to do.
There are actually a few good, knowledgeable people that work for the Angeles. You just gotta know who they are, get in touch with them, and try not to rely on the stuff that is meant for the masses (which again, should still be better than it is).
I agree about the piss-poor map, and the lame effort sometimes put forth on alot of things the USFS does. Like the pathetic thing called a website and information exhanging. It could (and should!) be so much better.
I also agree that your average person that answers the phone at some USFS offices is often clueless. However, that's why I gave some specific names of people that usually know what's going on, and actually get out there and do some of the same things many of us here love to do.
There are actually a few good, knowledgeable people that work for the Angeles. You just gotta know who they are, get in touch with them, and try not to rely on the stuff that is meant for the masses (which again, should still be better than it is).
I agree with everything you just said.
There are reasons things aren't communicated properly, clearly, or whatever. Like underfunding, politics, under-staffing, blah blah blah. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that things aren't communicated properly, clearly or whatever. I'm just pointing out that fact in hopes that someone can offer clarity. You have done so and thanks. I'll give those people a call (and without those names, it would be a crap shoot). Sorry it sounds like whining, but it isn't.
Couldn't get an answer about boundaries/open highways/trails from Mike McIntyre. Asked him about Buckhorn specifically, but he said it won't be accessible from the highway until November - right when they close it.
I asked about getting there from Wrightwood which I'm not sure he was clear on. In any case I'm not sure how they'd open the highway all the way up there and also maintain the closures.
I'm going up to Vincent Gap, and hopefully farther, tomorrow, so I'll let you all know what I find out. If there is anyone to ask, I specifically am going to find out about being able to walk or bike ACH beyond Islip Saddle. _________________ http://www.cougarmagic.com
I'm going up to Vincent Gap, and hopefully farther, tomorrow, so I'll let you all know what I find out. If there is anyone to ask, I specifically am going to find out about being able to walk or bike ACH beyond Islip Saddle.
You're my hero! I crave information!!! Must... have... info...
Highway 2 from the Wrightwood side is now re-opened to vehicles to Vincent Gap. That's where the closed gate is.
Legally, you can walk/bike past the gate at Vincent Gap at this time, but the area is behind a gate, and not patrolled, so you're on your own, and you may encounter fire/construction traffic/horny bighorn sheep (and if something happens, don't sue anyone. )
Now, if Cal-Trans or CHP decides they want to kick you out, that's their right since it's a state hwy. However, USFS does not have a closure to public entry behind the Vincent Gap gate to Islip Saddle gate.
Next: The official Fire Closure area begins AT Islip Saddle, so you're not supposed to go any further west than that on road or trail. So no, Buckhorn is not accessible at all right now even though part of the closure boundary straddles Hwy 2. There was slopover from the fire near Cloudburst Summit.
Layne, what other info do you want about "boundaries/open highways/trails"? I have a hard time believing Mike M couldn't answer any of your questions. He's a pretty sharp guy.
Next: The official Fire Closure area begins AT Islip Saddle, so you're not supposed to go any further west than that on road or trail. So no, Buckhorn is not accessible at all right now even though part of the closure boundary straddles Hwy 2. There was slopover from the fire near Cloudburst Summit.
This was exactly what I was wondering about. Its confusing since the highway acts as part of the boundary. My question is whether or not the highway itself is off limits since the area north of it is open all the way to Cloudburst.
Quote:
Layne, what other info do you want about "boundaries/open highways/trails"? I have a hard time believing Mike M couldn't answer any of your questions. He's a pretty sharp guy.
I crave any info about the Islip/Buckhorn area. Mike M is the MAN - he fed me as much info via email as he could during this whole ordeal. I think I just didn't phrase my question right. His answer had to do with how I'd reach/not reach Buckhorn from Glendale instead of Wrightwood which is what I meant to ask him about.
Zé, the problems you are experiencing are due to the Forest Service not having local specialists in graphics and communications who can ensure that policies are clearly promulgated throughout the agency and to the public. Everything is being done ad hoc.
The way it works is, the District Supervisor determines they need a map of the closure area, and canvasses the office to see if there's anyone who can use Photoshop. Someone raises her hand and she gets the job. _________________ I'm aware that, for many people, a map holds neither meaning nor mystery. I can only hope, compassionately, that the rest of their existence isn't equally poverty-stricken.
- Colin Fletcher
I can be very dense for most of my awake hours but I'm not sure wtf you're talking about AW - what am I missing?
I want the Forest Service to tell me in clear language whether I can walk on the trails and roads that form the boundary of the closure area. Seems like one should be able to do so, or at least walk 1 inch to the non-closure side of the trail /road. Anyway, what's tiresome about almost everything the Forest does is that it is almost always ambiguous at best. Very tiresome.
I was getting ahead of the discussion perhaps...heres a snipet from that forum...
"But there are closed trails and roads that intersect with the open areas. If we see traffic on the closed area trails and roads and the people are accessing from the open trails and routes, then we will take a tough look at closing trails and roads that are now open."
Add this to the AFH&ACH opening up sometime this year.
Think that the boundaries can possibly be explained and complied with? Most of the public does not go to the website or call a certain mr.X at the office. Thus the direction we are headed is chronic closures...the leading example being Crystal Lake...unless MtnMan or anyone can explain why that area is closed besides the official law of the land.
The Station fire was a game changer and thus far, all the planning is like nothing ever happened...its just burnt...its just not realistic.
So after the public is walking on the closed areas..now what? I suppose in Crystal Lake its closed but look the other way is the policy...thus people who want to comply get left out in the cold....and then when you call them like I did back in 2006 when it was 100% that the Crystal Lake was going to open, you get informed the opening date was changed to a date to be determined...dont even bother calling now...and thats the path we are headed toward on this Station fire area.
In addition, we have these crazy plans like the AFH is going to be commuter only and 'civilized' as if anyone really believes that will happen...or as mentioned , the East Fork SG river can hold the entire Hwy39 crowd...once 39 opens ...its simply going to be overcapacity everywhere near or in the closed section.
Thats the best case scenario IMO. I think even more realistic is landslides occur and make the place closed forever due to no highway access.
In the worst case scenario, the fire setters move east now and the potential for the east side being scorched is now is much greater.
Thats why I mentioned a permit system that limits access(sometimes as low as 12 people per day) but still provides it....go to the office, sign away the forest liability,etc...
My thinking is we go out there and preserve the roads...massive volunteer effort...wouldnt care if the cliffside had to be covered in cement...whatever we can do to stop landslides. For the open/closed line, right now its OK, but also volunteers to get more trail open like the MtWilson toll road. And open the West Fork SG river for sure.
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