| Archive for San Gabriel Mountains Discussion Forum Open discussion board for activities in the San Gabriel Mountains in Southern California |
| mattmaxon |
Station Fire Monday August 31stOvernight the fire made major jumpsI have a Google Earth KML here 
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| Zé |
holy hell | ||||||||||||||||||
| simonov |
Holy shit! | ||||||||||||||||||
| Mike P |
Mt Wilson wasn't overrun as expected! | ||||||||||||||||||
| cougarmagic |
I can't watch this anymore. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Kit Fox |
Matt,
How do you make the current fire maps? |
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| simonov |
Came damned close: 
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| mattmaxon |
How do you make the current fire maps?
I download the data from http://wildfire.cr.usgs.gov/fireplanning/ Tweak it in Manifold 8 Export it to a KML file The current image was made in Manifold with a Map I exported from TOPO! Xport Pro, but the KML is compatible with Google Earth http://earth.google.com/ I tried making maps with Google Maps with little consistent success, I was gonna muck around with it and make it work.... http://maps.google.com The trouble with trying to directly use the downloaded data in GE is the SHP file is a California specific projection NOT Lat/Long GE has limited features Manifold is a true GIS package Matt |
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| Kit Fox |
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing. You are the only one who has current maps in a Topo format. | ||||||||||||||||||
| AlanK |
The GEOMAC site has fire perimeters viewable in Google Earth (the format could be friendlier). The latest Station Fire one is frm last night. It's huge, as everyone realizes. The Star News said this morning that it is at 86000 acres. | ||||||||||||||||||
| mattmaxon |
If you want there is a topo download for GE http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/kml_overlay download the GPSVisualizer_overlays.kml Select the area you want a map for rtclk on the GPSvisulaizer and REFRESH Select the TOPOGRAPHIC map option and open the resulting KML in Google earth |
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| Rick Kent |
Damn! That's nearly 1/3 of the San Gabriels! | ||||||||||||||||||
| mattmaxon |
This is an outline of the fire on Google Maps
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl...52617508381.000472727e388b9f08daa |
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| AlanK |
And it's still growing. 
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| mattmaxon |
Mt Wilson is toast, just a matter of time. (unless there is some sort of divine intervention) I pay no attention to those values they are ancient history by the time they are released but 85,000 is as good as any figure yeah, the major extension was from Mt Gleason to Pacifico Mtn area |
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| edenooch |
Its all toast!
how did the fire get so uot of control. I have seen better fire combat for the other fires in the past year. when it was just a small blaze east of lukens. They should have had it out in a day |
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| mattmaxon |
for the perimeter that is shown on the Geomac website my GIS program calculates 115,575.38 acres
Obviously not all that has burned inside the active perimeter, but I gives you some sense of the size |
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| mattmaxon |
I couldn't disagree There needs to be an investigation as to why this happened, they need to hold the people responsible accountable Fury, rage, extreme disdain really doesn't describe what I am feeling at the boneheads that where in charge of this on Wednesday and Thursday The decisions that where made where very very very poor ones, and that is putting it mildly |
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| platypii |
Such a sad day! I'm just praying that by some miracle Eaton Canyon survives (my favorite place in all the san gabriels). Seems to be just on the precipice now...
1 day old image from space. Can see the smoke extending all the way out towards vegas:  [/img][/url]
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| mattmaxon |
If you are having trouble accessing the Geomac website I downloaded the Active Perimeter and made an online map of it
this is 115.575.38 acres http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie...52617508381.0004727413c899583f7e7 |
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| outwhere |
I would like to hear more about this too... I may be totally way off but the impression I got when the fire first started, it seemed like it was relatively calm. Be curious to know how many acres burned, let's say, in the first 5 to 6 hours of the fire... Again, monday morning quarterbacking on my part - but did the lack of high winds make this fire less alarming? Did certain officials see this as an opportunity for a so-called 'controlled burn' (especially since the fire was heading north vs. towards the houses?) Or were there just a lack of air resources to hit the initial fire area? I think I sorta feel like edenooch feels - compared to other fires, this fire seems like it never got the attention or respect that we've seen over the years. Or am I way off and this fire just happened to occur in such a remote area that not much coulda stopped it? |
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| Tim |
Unbelievable! That's like the entire SGW going up in smoke. Ugh...I feel ill. |
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| Rick Kent |
I have so many questions about what has probably burned. I don't think the public has a clue how big this fire is. We hear statistics and numbers all the time but it doesn't mean anything. It was only after I saw the burn perimeter maps this morning that I had a clue. I could not have comprehended that it could burn all the way over to Gleason and then on to Pacifico in so little time. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Rick Kent |
On a positive note I guess it shouldn't be too hard to get to Falls of the Fox anymore. That was half the adventure though. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Kit Fox |
I've been working on a list on military wreck sites that disappeared in the formerly dense undergrowth of ANF.
04/06/43 BT-13A flown by instructor William T. Nunn from Cal Aero School at Ontario AAF crashed on north slope of Mt. Lukens, above La Crescenta, killing him instantly. 09/20/44 P38 Hits Just Below Ridgeline Near Mount Wilson 11/16/44 C47 #6143 Crashed In Wildcat Gulch Near Mount Wilson 12/22/44 B24 from Muroc crashed near Mount Gleason after an explosion in air 12/24/44 BT13 crashed while searching for B24 near Mount Gleason in the Angeles Forest 07/25/49 Aronca Champion #N-84849 crashed near Iron Mountain five miles south of Ravena. 02/15/51 Ryan Airplane # 4576K Crashed In Chimney Canyon Southwest Of Mount Gleason 07/02/52 USAF C47 #8723 Enroute From El Paso, TX To Van Nuys Crashed On Mount Wilson 09/04/56 Two F86's #49-1336N&48-313N From Ontario ANG Base Collide And Crash Above Mount Pacifico. 07/23/60 B25 Crashes While On Firefighting Mission in Mill Canyon |
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| mattmaxon |
Been There, there is another BT-13 that I've searched for on the South Face from 10/1948, I don't think the area where the wreck likely is has burned, there is a private plane wreck in dunsmore from 1969 too... We narrowed it (the BT-13) down to an area with chest to head high poison oak There is a Cessna wreck in Big-T the daughter of the pilot wants to visit, he clipped the power lines while flying up canyon 0.18 BAC or something like that There is the F104 Starfighter on Josephine Peak too... I've petioned the BGN to have it named Casada Cyn Want to pin point the site for the son of the pilot and send him a bit of wreckage. Likely Project Remembrance monument location http://www.aircraftwrecks.com/monuments/remembrance.htm
Pretty sure I've been there, Below harvard and yale
Been to some of it, the site has been salvaged but there is likely more there
I've found a a few pieces, it may well be worth another look now.
Got an excellent Idea where this is, have just been waiting for better weather, I got some crash scene photos
Another one I've never heard of...
I've found some of this, was looking for the main wrecksite(s), the one who pilot was killed
I've been there Matt |
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| HikeUp |
I think tons of 'lost' stuff will be found now. A whole bunch of new stuff to go see and explore (unfortunately). | ||||||||||||||||||
| AlanK |
Matt, you sure get around!  And thanks to Kit Fox for bringing up all of those planes.
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| dgrimreaper |
And with no wind...Seems almost impossible to fathom. As for the reason it got so big, I would venture to guess they thought it would be good to have a controlled burn. Now it is an attempted controlled burn. This could be on that new Fox show, "When Good Fires Go Bad." |
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| Rick Kent |
I can't see at this point how they can even hope to fight it. The perimeter is just too huge. | ||||||||||||||||||
| mattmaxon |
There is plenty of wind at the fire, it creates it's own weather.... All that stuff burning sucks lots of air into the area and up It is so powerful it is going up to 20,000+ft throwing all those small particles up there too You'll notice those top out and then flatten without any wind, that is the smoke and fine particles loosing energy Similar to Pryoclastic flows in Volcanoes, the ash gets thrown up and eventually it becomes too heavy and comes down as superheated pumice and ash, very devastating. Hundresds of MPH and 800-1000°F gas and debris The smoke isn't that heavy so it doesn't come crashing back down I have seen thunder storms develop around the smoke at the higher elevations, kinda cool and scary |
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| mattmaxon |
Rome wasn't built in a day, and this won't be put out in a day either The weather will have to cooperate, higher humidity, cooler temps, a light to moderate wind so the aircraft can operate |
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| AW |
Good job on the map Matt....I did see from video footage that Eaton canyon(looked like the entire canyon almost) and Muir canyons were burned yesterday. Basically also lost Great Falls of the Fox in the Tujunga area...its just too much sometimes as 2 firefighters died defending the south side of MtGleason(Fox Creek drainage). | ||||||||||||||||||
| Zé |
time lapse video
Time Lapse Test: Station Fire from Eric Spiegelman on Vimeo. http://www.videosift.com/video/Socal-Fires-09-Smoke-Timelapse |
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| AW |
I know.....hehehe Im very curious to head out there once this is over, but watch for a decade long closure....ACH is in really bad shape and already is down to one lane from the news reports(granted its closed to regular traffic) due to landslides....I still might not be stopped 
Fire is getting close to the San Gabriel river west side now....strange. |
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| AW |
It will be like the LSA though. Once the rains get through filling it up with dirt it will be changed for quite a long time...not mention potentially dangerous. Access? Will have to walk from Gold Creek road ...or via Mt Lukens...thats quite an approach.... |
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| AW |
Yeah..something like that. The reason its so big is its not fought at night and runs uncontrolled. But the real kicker I think is that they wanted this fire to burn...its like the Forest Service set the place on fire by not getting it out. Its really lamentable to me that they saw an opportunity to use this to make living in LaCanada safer at the expense of the nature...then it has bitten them in the azz by not being able to defend it in the other areas. They dont talk about the forest because they dont interact in the same way we do...to them its just a heap of potential trouble. I just hope it doesnt turn into our Katrina as a symbol of government ineptitude. Im not pissed, Im way beyond pissed. Those 2 firefighters who died at the hands of the forest service decisions. |
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| mattmaxon |
Afternoon sat dataThe afternoon pass of the sat shows Mt Wilson summit and antenna farm untouchedThe beast has leapfrogged to the head of Tujunga Canyon and the edge of the San Gabriel Wilderness The north mass had some spotting to Alder Saddle West and north some slow progress down Mattox Cyn toward Soledad Cyn rd There is still some active burning on Mt Lukens and Yerba Buena Ridge A small consolation on the south where it seems to be staying out of Rubio and Eaton 
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| dgrimreaper |
So angry DamOTclese!  I think one thing is certain; with your connections and friendships fighting on the front lines, you probably have more vested interest out there than anyone on this board. Its a shame that this blaze has gotten to this point. I think everyone is disappointed that probably half of their forest, if not more, will end up being burned. It may end up that the wrong decision was made on how to handle the blaze, but hindsight is 20/20, right? Easy to say it was a bad decision now, but it probably seemed like the right one last week. I hope that your friends stay safe out there, and that you are able to get a restful night sleep.
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| Kit Fox |
It happened because most of the area hasn't burned since the 50s. I'm going to catch some heat, but, the proper thing to do is protect the structures, and let nature take its course. Fire is natural, but the tree hugger motto of protecting the forest by never allowing it to burn is both unnatural, and unhealthy for the forest. The same thing happened during the La Brea fire. Old growth was allowed to burn itself out.
The economy crashed due to several factors, including a global economic recession. Blaming the Republicans is nothing but partisan rhetoric without proof. Root Cause Crisis of politically driven crony capitalism The way it’s presented, Democrats have the media and public convinced they had nothing to do with it. Over the past eight years, those who have tried to fix Fannie and Freddie (the epicenter of the current meltdown) were stymied repeatedly by Congressional Democrats. Don’t get me wrong, some key Republicans deserve some blame as well, but the majority stake holders in this meltdown are Democrats. If you want to know how we got here, read on. Also, I am not taking credit for this research, I am just passing it along so everyone I can reach can understand how this happened and who should be held accountable. The reason: Fannie and Freddie became massive providers of reliable votes from low-income homeowners and massive givers to the Democratic Party by investment bankers and Fannie and Freddie. Where All This Lunacy Began: It started in 1977 during the Carter presidency. Carter and the Democrats brought us the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA). The main idea, eliminate the practice of redlining by lending institutions. The definition of redlining is banks setting up shop in low income areas, taking their deposits, then lending the funds to rich areas while starving the poor and minorities communities of housing and capital. The CRA came just years after other major civil rights acts that were passed. But now, blacks felt frozen out of home ownership. So, like most all good intentions without thought, we have bad results. This led to the housing boom, supported by shoddy loan practices, a subsequent bust, and the financial mess we have now. Between 1977 and the early 1990s The CRA forced banks and savings institutions to make loans to poor and often uncreditworthy minorities. Banks were required to keep records of their minority lending practices. If they didn’t pass muster, they were refused to expand, merge with other banks, or boost lending in new markets. There wasn’t much policing required then by government, they let radical community groups like ACORN and NACA syphone billions of dollars from banks and let them lend money in poor communities. These groups booked thousands in fees for every loan and required recipients to become active in radical causes – today’s community organizing or shakedown artists. Can you say Barrack Obama. Clinton Rewrites Rules Making The Subprime Crisis Inevitable How did the government get so deeply involved in the housing market? Answer: President Clinton wanted it that way. After entering office in 93, he extensively rewrote Fannie and Freddie’s rules. As a result, he turned two quasi-private mortgage funding firms into a semi-nationalized monopoly that dispensed cash to markets, made loans to large Democratic voting blocs and handed favors, jobs, and money to political allies. This led to corruption and their ultimate current day collapse. Led by top Democrats, including Representative Barney Frank in the House and Senator Chris Dodd in the Senate, Congress not only did nothing about the growing risks at Fannie and Freddie, it in essence doubled down on their risks. The Democrat-led Congress of the early 1990s eased capital limits on the two mortgage lending giants, letting them use enormous leverage — 2.5% of assets at Fannie and Freddie, vs. 10% for banks — to expand lending to low-income, minority communities. Despite warnings of trouble at Fannie and Freddie, in 1994 Clinton unveiled his National Homeownership Strategy, which broadened the CRA in ways Congress never intended. Congress Eases Lending Rules In 1994, the Democratic Congress again moved, passing the Community Reinvestment Act — an update of the original 1977 law. For the first time, homeowners that previously didn't qualify — either because they couldn't put any money down or had bad credit — were made eligible for government-backed loans. The housing boom was on. Still, even after the GOP won control of Congress in 1995, Democrats in both houses worked with President Clinton as Fannie and Freddie's enablers. Clinton, bypassing Republicans in Congress, had HUD rewrite the rules for Fannie and Freddie to let them get involved in the subprime market for the first time. Robert Rubin's Treasury got involved too, reworking its own rules to crack down on banks that didn't make enough loans to distressed, minority neighborhoods.Loans started being made on the basis of race, and often little else. By 2007, Fannie and Freddie owned or guaranteed nearly half of the $12 trillion U.S. mortgage market — a staggering exposure. Undersecretary Gary Gensler went to Congress in 2000 seeking an end to the companies' special status — especially the "implicit" federal guarantee of their now-$5.4 trillion loan portfolio — and more power for regulators to boost the companies' capital requirements. Democrats raised a ruckus. So did Fannie and Freddie, which were both headed by politically well-connected CEOs who knew how to strategically reward — and punish — those who crossed them. "We think that the statements evidence a contempt for the nation's housing and mortgage markets," Freddie Mac spokeswoman Sharon McHale said at the time, summing up the sentiment in Congress. It was the last chance during the Clinton era for anything like real reform. Could the crisis at Fannie Mae-Freddie Mac and the subprime meltdown have been avoided? The answer is yes. It was as early as 1992, alarm bells were going off on the threat Fannie and Freddie posed to our financial system and our economy. Intervention at any point could have staved off today's crisis. But Democrats in Congress stood in the way. As the president recently said, Democrats have been "resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me . . . to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." No, it wasn't President Bush who said that; it was President Clinton, Democrat, speaking just last week. This is interesting, because it was his administration's relentless focus on multiculturalism that led to looser lending standards and regulatory pressure on banks to make mortgage loans to shaky borrowers. Democrats Blocked Reform just as Republicans got blamed for Enron, WorldCom and other early-2000s scandals that were actually due to the anything-goes Clinton era, the media are now blaming them for the mortgage meltdown. But Republicans tried repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to Fannie and Freddie. Democrats opposed them, especially Senator Chris Dodd and Representative Barney Frank, who now run Congress' key banking panels. The Facts about this are crystal clear and history supports them. Even after regulators in 2003 uncovered a scheme by Fannie and Freddie executives to overstate earnings by $10.6 billion to boost bonuses, the Democrats killed reform. "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not facing any kind of financial crisis," said Rep. Frank, then-ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. North Carolina Democrat Melvin Watt accused the White House of "weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing." In 2005, then-Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan told Congress: "We are placing the total financial system of the future at substantial risk."McCain Urged Changes That year, Sen. John McCain, one of three sponsors of a Fannie-Freddie reform bill, said: "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole." Sen. Harry Reid — now Majority Leader — accused the GOP of trying to "cripple the ability of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to carry out their mission of expanding homeownership." The bill went nowhere. This year, the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about this being a "Republican" disaster. Well, McCain has repeatedly called for reforming the mortgage giants. The White House has repeatedly warned Congress. This year alone, Bush urged reform 17 times. Some GOP members are complicit. But Fannie and Freddie were created by Democrats, regulated by Democrats, largely run by Democrats and protected by Democrats. That's why taxpayers are now being asked for $700 billion. While there are critics pointing to the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act as the cause of this, there is some justification to do that, however, the first public securitization of CRA loans started in 1997 by Bear Stearns (first in, first out) two years before the repeal. While the repeal probably accelerated the overleveraging, it doesn’t serve as the beginning of mandatory neglect of fiduciary responsibility by lending institutions imposed by the government (Democrats as the majority with some Republicans participating). The cause is globalism. Every one of the items listed has as its root cause the goal of globalizing our government, including Carter’s CRA. It is a manifestation of the UN’s human settlement/habitation programs. Every illegal alien from Mexico who bought a house here can thank a UN ‘treaty’ for the genesis of the programs that allowed him to purchase the house, tied in with the transnational bankers greed at getting their hands on Mexico as a market for their products. Just see the Security and Prosperity Partnership documents on the web for the details.
I'd rather see the forest burn more often, stopping for 50 plus years only makes it worse. |
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| kgw |
Here's what the smoke clouds look like from Signal Hill in Long Beach:
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| AlanK |
Let's keep politics out of this. I do not blame Kit Fox for his long political post because he die not start it, but DamOTclese has, in effect, offered a truce. Or at least a cease fire.
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| Tim |
I have no opinion on how this was handled by the authorities but you have to admit that having probably half of the Angeles National Forest burn down to nothing is pretty depressing. Imagine driving up Hwy 2...it will look like a wasteland. Strawberry Peak totally burned down, Lawlor, maybe even Vetter. All of those areas are now nothing but dirt and ash. The chaparral will grow back but I could do without them. I just hope the trees and animals survived, unlike Ontario Peak which has never been the same. | ||||||||||||||||||
| edenooch |
Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out? | ||||||||||||||||||
| Zé |
depends on the damage, and how long it would take to fix. the Curve Fire closed a part of the 2 for 5 or so years! |
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| edenooch |
took them 5 years to make the little bridge after islip saddle i can only imagine a clean up job 
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| Mike P |
Z, I thought that Hwy 2 was closed because of winter damage not because of the Curve fire. |
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| dgrimreaper |
I guess we won't know the full extent of the damage until the rainy season is over next spring. Unstable hillsides in a possible El Nino year could be disastrous. |
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| Zé |
woops i think you are right. but i thought the winter falll was indirectly due to the fire weakening the terrain or something. |
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| AlanK |
Well said, Tim! |
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| Kit Fox |
Matt, Have you visited or seen the F-100 wreck in Alder Gulch (near Ross Mountain?) |
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| edenooch |
hopefully the snow level will be 3500 feet like last year and cover up this bloodiness for winter hikes | ||||||||||||||||||
| Kit Fox |
I'm done after offering an alternative view to his. Sorry for the temporary hijack.
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| edenooch |
so when im hiknig thru switzers or colb canyon in 2 months its gonna look like this?
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| Mike P |
Kit Fox- My sentiments exactly! Believe me, I am extremely bummed about the forest destruction, watershed damage, and animal loss. The armchair quarterbacking here is quite entertaining. (OK, now I am off some of your Christmas card lists  ) Some of these disasters fall into the 'sh!t happens' department. Folks, sometimes Mother Nature does not wish to cooperate with our human intentions of putting out the fire.
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| Zé |
I hate to see our beloved forest burn, but at the same time it is a natural occurrence. Hard to accept | ||||||||||||||||||
| Tim |
This part of it boggles my mind:
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| AlanK |
From the Pasadena Star News.
It is interesting that there may have been a fire about this size about 120 years ago, way before man was trying very hard to put them out. This is not to argue one way or another about whether or not to fight forest fires. But ths idea that large fires are the creation of modern humans is an oversimplification. |
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| Rick Kent |
Ok, so what's the latest? Has the fire reached Twin Peaks yet? I see from Matt's last update what looks like fire on the east side of hwy2 just east of Charlton Flats. I think I read they were trying to hold it off around there and had to pull out. | ||||||||||||||||||
| edenooch |
why does the news just show the fire in the same area only.. we wanna see the whole forest and firezone! i dont wanna see any more burn charts or plots on topos........ 
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| He219 |
One of my buddies is planning on going on Echo right now.
I advised him against it; air quality and visibility probably suck and he could find himself in a world of hurt if the wind picks up or shift. Maybe you'll get some interesting pix, edenooch
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| edenooch |
my buddy just emailed me and said that the mt lowe fire road ion FIRE!!
is the old taver ncampsite up there scorched too? I remember seeing a cabin near a connecting trail rom dawn mine to that road....i hope hats not history! |
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| Rumpled |
It's amazing to me that this fire has seemed to go up, down and over mountains and drainages without a wind event.
Notice that most of these larger fires have all been in recent years, the accumulation of not letting anything burn. Though, we can't ever seem to get controlled burns right, as there is one out of control in Yosemite right now. |
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| edenooch |
news said those cnyon aint burned in 30 years...after this looks like were good for anoter 30 | ||||||||||||||||||
| Mike P |
Alan, you made me look into John Robinson's book, The San Gabriels, where he quotes Rush Charlton (early San Gabriel Reserve supervisor) regarding two Sept. 1919 fires that joined: "The greatest fire we have ever known in southern California has destroyed the Pacoima watershed and caused tremendous damage to the Tujunga, San Gabriel, and San Dimas watersheds...." Now that is an impressive fire! Apparently, one fire started in the Narrows of the East Fork while another started in the Big Tujunga. |
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| HikeUp |
LOL. Merry Christmas Mr. P! |
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| HikeUp |
I kind of view these fires as sort of a natural event 'enhanced' by man. It's natural, but it may or may not be of the natural magnitude. Either way, nature will recover as long as we don't do something stupid in response (like plant unnatural foliage to prevent erosion and mudslides, etc.).
Kind of like the Exxon Valdez oil spill. It's just oil, for pete's sake!!!
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| HikeUp |
I wonder if it would have been better off (in terms of the resulting size of the fire) if this had occurred during a wind event. The wind would have driven it in a single direction as opposed to the 360 degree spreading that has actually occurred. Yes it would have been 'worse' perhaps for the people/structures down wind but it certainly wouldn't have spread so omnidirectional...right? | ||||||||||||||||||
| edenooch |
[quote="DamOTclese"]
Be glad your not in Tenessee where the fire flies will burn your house down! |
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| Hikin_Jim |
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| Hikin_Jim |
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| Hikin_Jim |
In a pine forest, the fire burns through quickly, cleaning up the forest floor but leaving the trees intact. In a chapparal area, everything is destroyed. His research indicates that burns every 50 - 150 years are what the chapparal plant community needs. In other words, there should be a good number of years between burns in order for a chapparal community to be healthy. He pointed out how a major fire swept through San Diego just four years after another brush fire had burned through the same area. He said that the idea that burning the chapparal every so often to keep fire danger down is a total myth and is not reflected in a study of historical data and chapparal plant community studies. His remarks made a lot of sense to me. |
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