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Basic Mountaineering Orientation - Winter 2011
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Taco
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject: Basic Mountaineering Orientation - Winter 2011  Reply with quote

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a class, none attending are paying, and we are not a guiding service. This is just a way for those interested to learn some basics and do a simple climb up Mount Baldy via the Bowl. We are not responsible for your well-being, safety, and all of that nonsense, so don't sue any of us, mmkay?

Also, check this first post for updates.

Hi guys, I'm organizing a basic mountaineering "clinic" on Baldy, with a climb up Baldy Bowl. The purpose of this trip is to get new climbers and others getting into winter trips and mountaineering comfortable and safe on the mountain.

We will be covering the very basics:
-Efficient Winter travel: Moving smartly
-Layering: staying warm and keeping cool
-Self-arrest: With and without axe, poles, and crampons, in all positions.
-Basic climbing and walking techniques


The more advanced side will simply be from experienced folks sharing their tips and techniques that often don't find their way into a book.

Required gear:
-Crampons: 10pt, 12pt, the usual.
-Axe: One standard mountaineering axe
-Helmet: A helmet will be required for climbing up Baldy Bowl. If you don't have one, you can take the trail up through the trees to the ridgeline.
-Gloves: Some good gloves you wouldn't mind self-arresting in a lot.

For glacier practice, everyone will need, in addition to the crampons, ice axe and helmet, an alpine harness and at least one locking caribiner.  We can work out ropes, pulleys, pickets and other gear off-line.

Date is 8th of January at 6am, with the 29th of January for glacier practice. First major snow is typically mid-December, but due to the holiday season we probably won't get many folks out. Meet up at Manker Flat at 6am! We will start hiking up to the Bowl by 630.

If you are interested, reply to this message.


Last edited by Taco on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:00 pm; edited 7 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some course suggestions..

> Advanced Winter Survival: Eating Your Friends - Selection and Technique
> Cliffhanger 101: A Study Companion to the Groundbreaking Alpine Hand-to-Hand Combat Documentary
> Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills - Cover-to-Cover.  48 consecutive days.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bertfivesix wrote:
Some course suggestions..


No ice axe air guitar technique?

Good idea Taco
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Count me in for sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bertfivesix wrote:
Some course suggestions..

> Advanced Winter Survival: Eating Your Friends - Selection and Technique
> Cliffhanger 101: A Study Companion to the Groundbreaking Alpine Hand-to-Hand Combat Documentary
> Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills - Cover-to-Cover.  48 consecutive days.


Also,

>"Don't walk around my tent with your crampons on": Making friends at camp.
>How to blow up your tent, starring MSR White Gas.
>"Why is the snow red?": How to tell when you're starting to have fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hvydrt wrote:
bertfivesix wrote:
Some course suggestions..


No ice axe air guitar technique?

Good idea Taco


Can't be taught.  You've either got it or you don't.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taco wrote:
bertfivesix wrote:
Some course suggestions..

> Advanced Winter Survival: Eating Your Friends - Selection and Technique
> Cliffhanger 101: A Study Companion to the Groundbreaking Alpine Hand-to-Hand Combat Documentary
> Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills - Cover-to-Cover.  48 consecutive days.


Also,

>"Don't walk around my tent with your crampons on": Making friends at camp.
>How to blow up your tent, starring MSR White Gas.
>"Why is the snow red?": How to tell when you're starting to have fun.


Hey, it was cold and I was tired of my eyebrows anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

I've added a short list of required gear to the original post.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some scheduling blackout dates for me:

Can't make it on the 15th (youth hike) or the 22nd (SHOT Show).

That leaves the 8th and the 29th open for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am definetly interested, all depends on the final date.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am interested in the class.  Hope the date will be good for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll definitely try to attend if its later in January. Also, I'll probably bring a newbie or 2.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in...I like to meet this cartoon character Taco..

If I can't make the weekend class do you do weekday classes, I'll have new vacation and sick time to use Very Happy

mark
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taco! Sounds like a fun day - if it's on a weekend please count me in  Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arright, everyone agree on a date. I don't have a job so it doesn't matter to me.  Sad  I'm free pretty much any day.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturday, 29 January.  Done.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOING ONCE.... GOING TWICE...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooner rather than later.  08JAN.  Kaboom.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like both the 8th and 29th of Jan.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also prefer sooner rather than later, so people can enjoy more of the season.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Zach asked for early in the month and Taco for late in the month, I am scheduling two Saturdays in January:

8 January
29 January

After some basic stuff on the 8th, I would also, on the 29th, like to rope up a couple of three-man teams for a climb up the bowl to simulate glacier travel.  We could also practice glacier rescue and anchors.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am VERY down to try out roped team glacier travel and rescue scenarios.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glacier travel will be a real good idea, as something is coming up soon. Smile

I figure the sooner the better for the clinic, since the month of January is a big time for winter mountaineers here. Better to get some practice BEFORE y'all head to the hills. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The glacier stuff will come in handy later in the year, in the spring and even summer, for those who are interested in climbing stratovolcanoes.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Taco,
Please count me in if there is more room.
Shin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bertfivesix wrote:
I am VERY down to try out roped team glacier travel and rescue scenarios.


ditto!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's plenty of room for everyone. The Bowl is quite large. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taco, suggest you update the opening post to mention the two dates and different equipment requirements.

For glacier practice, everyone will need, in addition to the crampons, ice axe and helmet, an alpine harness and at least one locking caribiner.  We can work out ropes, pulleys, pickets and other gear off-line.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Updated. Thanks Simonov.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my idea is to do both dates: the 8th for basic self arrest practice and the 29th for roped travel and glacier rescue.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, gotcha. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c 'ya on the 8th!   Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: We are in!!! Reply with quote

Yes! I am so excited! My husband and I just got our first ice axes, and are waiting on the crampons. We have a lot of experience in hiking/backpacking but this year definitely want to do winter climbing. We are planning a trip to San Jacinto for the Christmas weekend to get accustomed to our new gear, and we will definitely join you guys on one of the dates at least. We've been wanting to meet more people that share our love for the outdoors, so this will be great!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward to working with y'all on the 8th. Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bertfivesix wrote:
I am VERY down to try out roped team glacier travel and rescue scenarios.


That sounds good! Setting up crevasse anchors,ratchets/pulleys,training team work etc,I am very down for that.


On the subject of "roped"...
How about some roped vertical ice climbing Bert? =D
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zach wrote:
How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?


It's not that hard actually.

To practice self-rescue out of a crevasse, you can start by getting your prussicing dialed-in while hanging from a tree or cliff. With a heavy pack on your back throwing you off balance of course.

To practice anchor building and hauling systems, just find any cliff or even just a moderately steep snow slope. The only thing that would fail to simulate is the effect of the rope cutting into the lip of a crevasse, but other than that,  the skills and systems will all be about the same.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zach wrote:
How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?


Easy as apple pie my friend,=)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXfrIAgpG0

Crevasse rescue and self rescue can be practiced anywhere there is a slope or slight overhang,you can even do it on flat ground in your backyard,just have to be creative =D.Majority of the techniques can be practiced far from a crevasse,like building anchors while pinned down,escaping the belay while under load,transferring loads,setting up a mechanical pulley to create a raise/lower,passing knots,jugging with a prussic/autoblocks (off a tree) etc etc.It is all the same techniques as rescuing someone or self rescue while rock climbing.The only difference is building anchors in the snow/ice.Hard to simulate making a ice screw v thread or deadmans snow anchor in dirt or grass haha

Safety being the main factor in teaching the techniques in big groups.The main key is to have a few people use their weight together if its done on level ground,or fairly low angle areas.(you could do it solo by using heavy ballasts).

Basically simulating a weighted hanging partner needing to get pulled up or lowered.Putting a heavy load on the person doing the rescue work,pulling the weight and/or lowering the weight,taking weight off you(transferring loads) and putting it on the anchor,setting up mechanical advantages,passing knots etc while being in a safe setting(low angle slope or flat ground).

So all in all,rigging up the anchors while being pinned by a few hundred lbs of weight,setting up a mechanical advantage pulley systems,rigging ratchets/raises/lowers can all be simulated without an actual crevasse.(For obvious safety factors) Razz



The only part of self rescue in a crevasse that cant be simulated well without an overhang or some kind of drop is jugging/prussicing,but even then to simulate Jugging/prussicing,it can be done over a short overhang,(balcony etc) or even a tree.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you guys are right, all the technique can be dialed-in and practiced without an actual crevasse and that's probably the most important thing here -- to learn the technique.  One thing we can't simulate is the "fear factor" created by the crevasse: the bottomless pit, closing-in walls, ice-cold water dripping into your clothing and the shear terror of knowing that any wrong move will pin you there forever ...

Did you see the simulated crevasses (ice-pits) they use in Swiss Alps?  Cool stuff (See from 1:47 ...):


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense!

We will DIG A CREVASSE!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't read this entire thread, so maybe someone has suggested this already, but just in case - you might consider practicing roped travel as well.  Harnesses help, but aren't essential - you can tie the rope around your waist.  It's not a difficult skill to learn, as it's mostly teamwork.  But, learning how to switchback up a steep slope, reversing direction without stepping on the rope with your pointy things, all the while in cadence with others on your team - it's as much as art as it is a science.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bertfivesix wrote:
I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense!  We will DIG A CREVASSE!

kinda' hard to do when you ain't got no snow!  have you seen Baldy lately?  Sad  

Idea time to start praying!  if it worked for Israel this week it can work for dear old Saint Anthony!  Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny Bronson wrote:

The only part of self rescue in a crevasse that cant be simulated well without an overhang or some kind of drop is jugging/prussicing,but even then to simulate Jugging/prussicing,it can be done over a short overhang,(balcony etc) or even a tree.


Last year I installed a metal ring in a roof beam in my office, about 12 or 13 feet from the floor.  Fritz and I practiced self-rescue off that.

I moved offices this year and will have to install another ring in my new place.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

norma r wrote:
bertfivesix wrote:
I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense!  We will DIG A CREVASSE!

kinda' hard to do when you ain't got no snow!  have you seen Baldy lately?  Sad  


We don't need snow!  We'll do it RUSSIAN style: http://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/about3188.html
Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MVE

I agree...we will do it RUSSIAN style! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
Haven't read this entire thread, so maybe someone has suggested this already, but just in case - you might consider practicing roped travel as well.  Harnesses help, but aren't essential - you can tie the rope around your waist.  It's not a difficult skill to learn, as it's mostly teamwork.  But, learning how to switchback up a steep slope, reversing direction without stepping on the rope with your pointy things, all the while in cadence with others on your team - it's as much as art as it is a science.


This would be a good idea. Would you be willing to help in this department?

Russian style = painful. I'm in.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question Hey Ryan, is this still happening on the 8th and is there some sort of itinerary? I might show up to help out, annoy people, or God forbid, learn something new.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, show up at Manker Flats at 6am. Sound like a good time? Figure we'd leave by 630.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was more thinking of meeting at the Ski Hut.  It might be better than waiting around in the parking lot for people to show up, especially latecomers.

I'm thinking of getting up there early and making . . . PANCAKES!
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